Vanguard (MMORPG) - Thoughts and opinions

Vanguard is supposed to hit the shelves tomorrow (01/30/2007). It sounds like the beta folks are already playing on the live servers. Are there any Dopers playing or that were in the beta? Who is going to check it out?

For my part, I find myself interested. I was EQ’s bitch from October of 1999 until WoW hit the shelves. I find myself feeling very mixed about a new game with Brad McQuaid’s Vision ™. Probably my fondest memories of EQ come from a time under McQuaid’s watch. However, I was new to MMORPGs then. It was all fresh and I wasn’t as jaded towards the genre as I am now. My memory of McQuaid’s Vision is that he liked there to be pain and grinds along with the pleasure. It makes me wonder how he’s adapted to a market that is being dominated by a very player friendly game, WoW.

So Dopers, what should I know about Vanguard? Should I buy it and check it out?

Its not WoW quality. If you are used to the polish and i guess “completeness” of WoW you are going to be very dissapointed. The graphics are good if you have a time machine and a computer from 2015, at the settings most people can currently play it at is no better than most last generation titles. The viewing distance is incredible though, you can see stuff a long time before you reach it. They have admitted that the only reason they are releasing it now is because they simply have no more money to develop it further, the game is not done. You will need lots of empty space, the game takes around 17gigs to install so it might cut into your porn collection.

That is still his Vision, luckily for anyone interested in Vanguard the people whos vision was to “make a game that some people might actually want to play” were in charge of the money and told Brad to STFU about the hardcore stuff. Its still an spiritual sequel to EQ1, much more than EQ2 was, so there will be some grind and there will be some pain. Personally i DLed the beta version (22gigs) and played it for about an hour and it wouldn’t surprise me if doctors started recomending Vanguard to people with erections lasting longer than four hours.

Wait for Hellgate: London.

All of what I’ve read says a great deal about the graphics - which, frankly, just aren’t that important in an MMORPG after playing for a month or two - and very little about gameplay. So you can see for miles? Nice, but once you’ve explored, then what? They seem to have cloned WoW a great deal - that’s about all I could gather (griffon mounts, even!).

The only things I found interesting were player housing and player-created boats, which could be fun. The FAQ on their website is largely philosophical but with few game details - surprising, considering the proximity of their launch - it doesn’t even have pricing.

I’m curious, especially as the MUD I played on for years was the same one as the EQ team used to play during development of EQ 1, and the FAQ seems to point back at recapturing what makes MUDs and MMORPGs fun. I simply don’t see a whole lot more than a vision at this point.

My SO is playing this, and has been for a couple months now. I think he got in for round 4 of beta. He’s enjoying it, and thinks I will as well. Vanguard’s not WoW, and I think that’s the reason we both want to play it. We started MMOs with FFXI, and WoW just didn’t provide the same level of challenge we had come to expect from a game. WoW never really hooked either of us for this reason.

The game is demanding specs-wise, and I’m buying my roommate’s current computer because mine can’t handle it. I’ve seen many screenshots, both online and taken by my SO, and the game looks like it’ll be worth the expense. I’ve read up on the class roles and abilities, and it sounds good. (Of course, I won’t actually know how good the classes are until I play them, but I’ve seen nothing that discourages me from any of them.)

I don’t have expectations that this game will change my life or take care of my entertainment needs for the next three years or anything, but I am looking forward to trying it out.

I don’t know if the NDA has been lifted for the Beta or not. However, let’s just say I know somebody that had a beta account. He found the game virtually unplayable on his present machine. The frame rate was worse than the most horrendus lag you’ve ever experienced in any online game, squared. He’s talking pauses between steps while walking kinda lag. Everything did look pretty, and he likes the concept of the game, but he’d have to get a top end system to have any chance of running this game. He’s not sure it’s worth that right now.

It has, since the 5th of january i think.

Okay, my guild was one of the first ones invited when they started bringing entire guilds into beta. I haven’t been able to play that much since my home PC can’t run it (no shader 2.0 on my old old video card), but here are some various things:

  1. As the devs promised, the performance has improved greatly over the last few weeks as release has approached and they’ve optimized things. It’s currently very playable at medium settings on a mid-range “current” machine, and both beautiful and playable on a top end machine. If your machine can play Oblivion, it can play this at least decently.

  2. As has been mentioned, this is very much more in the style of EQ1 than anything that has come since. It’s not the grind that EQ1 could be at times, but it’s certainly a lot easier to die in this game than it is in WoW. This is NOT easy-mode. There are consequences if you do stupid things, here.

  3. The game probably should have been released in March, but they basically ran out of money. That said, the last-second polishing has the game in much better shape than I thought it would be in when I first heard the release date. As a bonus, a lot of the server problems and stuff you expect with any MMO release will be mitigated on the live release tomorrow… because it got split up a bit with the ‘early release’ on Friday. It’s only a little bit less polished than WoW was when it was released… but since so many people joined WoW in the months following its release, a lot of people don’t remember that, anyways, and think WoW was born perfect. Either way, Vanguard has improved a LOT over the past ~3 months or so, and if you tried an early beta stage, you might want to give it another shot.

  4. I hate to make generalizations… but… the Average SDMB User will not like this game nearly as much as WoW, because the Average SDMB User is looking for that more casual gaming/social experience. If you were ever really into EQ1 and felt that WoW was “missing” something, VG is definitely worth a try.

I will post more once I get my new video card and actually play live for a bit, if there’s still demand for it by then. Vanguard is a good enough game that it deserves to succeed, and it’ll probably do pretty well for itself (though nothing on the WoW level of subscribers, of course). Six months down the road, this has the potential to be something special, at least for the demographic it’s aimed at. Right now, it’s “very good, and pretty damn fun”.

Thanks for all the replies so far. I hope this thread keeps going for a while after release.

As far as system specs, I just built a new gaming rig in October so I’m not too worried. If it runs too slow, it just means I would finally have an excuse to put my 7900GTO on eBay and get a 8800GTX.

So what does the picture look like for soloing or groups of two or three? I have a couple of real life friends that I normally game with. If they’re not online, as often as not I just play solo. I know some don’t understand playing solo in a MMORPG, but different strokes and all…

I read some of the official FAQ. Brad makes it sound like you’re going to be busy playing this game. He said good luck trying to two-box. That’s kind of funny since I used to four-box EQ for a while. Still, it wouldn’t surprise me at all. I hate trying to two box in WoW. So, how’s the combat that way? Click/hotkey-fest?

I’ve done some more reading and the reviews really play up that this is intended to increase difficulty. I guess my concern is does difficulty = tedium?

I like WoW and I don’t find it “easy”. Sure, just killing mobs or doing solo quests isn’t hard, but combat is tactical for other challenges (especially end-game 5man, raiding, and PVP). I like that I can sit down with WoW and play for 15 minutes and accomplish something, and that there aren’t too many unavoidable time-sinks that aren’t fun. What feedback I’ve gotten is that FF is the same way - it’s not really about the challenge of individual tasks, but that the same tasks are just a big pain in the ass. Having to play for 12 hours straight to accomplish something isn’t challenging in a fun way.

I’ll be interested to hear any more personal experiences with the game to see if my suspicions are correct.

Soloing (in the killing-things sphere) can be done by most classes, but it’s generally significantly slower than grouping, especially as you get up in levels. Additionally, you will have very little access to the better loot and items. Basically, you can solo for some stuff, but you wouldn’t really want to over the long term. A group of three, though, can do very well for itself.

Combat isn’t as clicky-spammy as WoW tended to feel (for me at least), but it’s definitely more in-depth than in EQ. It depends a lot on classes. You have two targets at any given time (one offensive, one defensive), and generally a wider variety of possible things to do and roles to fill than in EQ. Some of the classes are what you’d expect, but the next step forward in complexity from the EQ implementation (warrior, sorcerer, etc); some are pretty different from what we’ve seen before and a lot of fun (disciple, blood mage, even shaman). I suppose you could box a tank and a healer, but you wouldn’t really be getting max efficiency out of either… and you’d be much farther from max efficiency than you would be if you were boxing a tank and healer in EQ.

7900GTO will play it just fine - maybe not maxxed everything, but definitely above-average. You can play it on medium settings with the lower end 7 series and the higher end 6 series, at least in my experience. 8800GTX would always be shiny, of course, and if you need an excuse… :smiley:

Wow is considered “easy” because it barely punishes you for failure. Even in the hardest dungeons death is just a short run back, maybe some reclearing if you are unlucky or take too long, even on raids you can usually just rez everyone back up and go again and again until you succeed or give up. Pvp death is completely meaningless. Anything with real drawbacks to failing will be considered more hardcore.

My last post was in response to RogueRacer, of course.

PvP was actually my biggest problem with WoW. PvP in DAoC and even in EQ was an intensely tactical experience… relatively longer fights, different potential strategies, and a definite divide in skill level between “people who do this a lot and are experienced with all the possibilities” and “PvE people to which PvP is an inconvenience”. PvP as a mage in WoW (back when I played it, at least, which was admittedly a long time ago) had more to do with being as twitchy with my instas as possible, and hoping a rogue didn’t decide that I should die instantly.

As for VG… there is some increase in the time it takes to do things, in that the levelling curve is a bit steeper than WoW, especially after the first 10 levels or so. There’s also a lot more tactical difficulty with all aspects of group play, but that’s in my opinion - I feel that the 5-man grouping in WoW left a lot to be desired, but that’s obviously a YMMV situation. As far as I know, no one’s really had experience with the raiding game as of yet, so you’ll have to wait a while to hear about that.

(as background, my favorite part of WoW bar none was the 1-59 game solo or in small groups - the parts of MMO games that had always been a little tedious to that point were exceptional in WoW, if a little fast-moving. Other than that, I wasn’t as thrilled with the design direction in which WoW moved. There was never really a sense of being part of an immense world, partly because everything was so artificially close together, and partly because voice-chat became a needed part of the game because of how fast-paced it was.)

(Which reminds me of the one huge thing about VG that I didn’t reinforce - the world is immense, and more importantly, it feels that way. If you don’t like the concept that to travel from one end of the world to the other it should take more than five minutes, then yeah, there’s going to be a little tedium there for you.)

As for the other part of the difficulty thing, well, see what DigitalC just said. There was very little that you could do in WoW that would result in any negative consequence, regardless of how inept any particular action was. It might be a teeny bit masochistic, but if I do something completely stupid and get myself killed, I want there to be some negative reinforcement, almost as much as I want the shiny item when I do something exceptionally skillful.

Like I said, this game isn’t for everyone, and there are very valid reasons for preferring the WoW Experience to the Vanguard Experience. On the other hand, there are some of us who prefer the latter, and this has the potential to be the best game since EQ1 in that department.

I’m going to give it a try. I checked around this morning. The local Best Buy decided not to get it in stock on launch day. That’s becoming a regular occurrence for them. I probably wouldn’t have even checked with them, but I still have a gift card from Christmas. Fortunately, the game store in the mall has it and is holding me a copy until after work.

Any recommendations on a server?

Generalisations aside, this is what I was going to say. It has an EQ1 feel to it, and personally, I’ve been digging that. Granted it could be nostalgia (EQII has me by the balls, but I used to love EQ1 when it was all there was), but I like the challenges presented with corpse retrieval and the like. There was always that thrill of uncertainty. Since I’ve always played a rogue class, that’s the kind of thrill I’m looking for: will I get caught? Success feels so much better when you’ve worked for it, planned for it. While I love my EQII, frankly, raids make my eyes glaze over a bit, since, upon death, I either get a rez or log out and play the next day and all my XP debt is gone.

As others have mentioned, the graphics are cool, the game is still a bit laggy and buggy, but it’s coming along pretty well, and has really fun elements. I like the Diplomacy thing, and have been having fun with that for a while. My husband (who hadn’t been invited to beta and was plotzing over me being able to play until he finally was able to get in) is freaking out over this game, and he believes it has the potential to be *the very game * he’s been looking for. It does have elements of the other games we have played, such as DAoC, WoW, EQ1 & 2, etc. plus shiny new stuff. I’m not so sure yet. It does have potential, and I’d say it’s worth checking out for anyone who loves MMORPGs.

Anyway, pros and cons, everyone here has already said what I was going to say, so I’m just giving my rambling opinion. :smiley:

Serverwise, I’m on Woefeather, and the Kindred looks like a decent guild to join up with if you want to take the game in slowly and explore a bit before getting into anything serious.

I’ve been playing this game for about two weeks now, and currently have a level 11 rogue. (I wanted to play Berserker when I heard about this game while it was in beta, but that won’t be out until the first expansion).

Two things stand out about this game: 1) it’s gorgeous, and 2) it’s buggy.

I’ve visited about three of the starting areas so far, and traveled a bit across the islands and continents. The world is huge and beautiful. Zones are seamless, though there is a slight pause when you enter a new area. Because of the incredible size of the world, it can take a long, long time to travel from major town to town (which is probably the reason mounts are available at level 10). My SO and I probably spent about two hours last night traveling to and exploring two starting areas, and we didn’t see all of the sections of them.

The art style is a very natural-looking one, and so far none of the design elements are repetitive-- trees look different in different areas, geographies vary between mountainous and flat, barren and lush, dead and corrupted and thriving and natural. The transitions between each region are natural, too; there aren’t abrupt shifts in landscapes.

Each town has design themes, so they feel unique. The Wood Elf starting area, for instance, is a town whose buildings are built inside of tall trees, with long, sloping pathways connecting each tree. Impractical from a navigation point of view, but striking when first seen. Another area resembles feudal Japan; another, medieval Europe.

Quests are fairly standard so far: kill (number) (mob type), go find (NPC name), gather (number) of (item) from (mob). Dungeons are non-instanced, so there is competition for mobs. The game does not operate in real time, unlike WoW; each full day lasts around an hour. Mob aggro, however, works like WoW, in that mobs don’t ever stop being willing to attack you; only their aggro radius shrinks and their ability to detect you are reduced as the level disparity between you and them grows.

The bugs are inescapable, and serious. The most annoying one so far is the occasional disappearing act mobs perform during battle. Taking a few steps back makes them reappear, but this is inconvenient (for me at least, as a melee fighter) because it renders me unable to deal damage but still able to take damage. There is also an issue with memory leakage, which in my understanding necessitated the implementation of a /flush command to clear the memory cache. The game will crash if you change areas frequently and don’t clear the cache. I also have experienced problems establishing and remaining connected to the social server (which handles all in-game communication between players) and have had to log out to get them fixed.

Other random bugs include death when you attempt to use the boat that travels between continents (they implemented a temporary teleporting NPC as a workaround) and a summoned quest mob that didn’t despawn after it killed a player, and was left to aggro any other player who got close. Because this was a summoned mob, no other player was allowed to target it or do damage to it, so all you could do was run away from it.

This game is slightly more challenging than WoW. NPC quest targets do not appear as yellow dots on your minimap, although they do have color-coded shield symbols above their heads that indicate whether you can obtain a quest, are in the middle of a quest they gave you, or can complete a quest with them. Tradeskill resources such as trees and mineral nodes also do not appear on the minimap. Quest item drop rates so far are identical to WoW’s, if not a tad looser; generally, if I don’t get a quest item off the first mob I kill, I generally have it by the second or third.

NPC interaction isn’t as helpful as it could be (“Want to find the bank? Okay! I’ll mark it in your journal.” Me: Where’s my journal?), and because the game is new and few know it well and there are no manuals or Bradygames-esque guides available, there’s not much you can do if you’re lost or stuck on a quest other than /yell for help and pray another player can help you out.

There is an auction house system, though I haven’t used it yet, and there are general and regional vendors. Mobs drop your typical vendor-trash items for some money, and quest rewards often include silver, but overall, money does not come very easily in this game. At level 11, I had 26 silver before I bought my mount, and I’ve been as frugal as reasonably possible. By comparison, I had several gold in WoW by 11 Rogue. For the most part, I have done quite well without having a lot of money, but money will surely be important later. I was told that player housing land plots can cost 5 platinum, which is equal to 5000 gold.

I have not yet explored the crafting and diplomacy spheres of this game. Crafting in this game is far, far more complex than 1) learn recipe, 2) gather item materials, and 3) mass produce; it allows for unexpected failures and high-quality results. I’m looking forward to learning more about this.

Despite the bugs, I’m enjoying this game quite a bit. It has incredible potential. I really hope in the next few months they’re able to iron out all of the problems. It’s not a WoW-killer, but I think it can satisfy the players who want something deeper and more challenging than WoW.

I should note that today’s patch notes indicate that the first of those bugs was fixed today, and at least one major memory leak was also fixed in today’s patch. I am receiving the parts I need to build my computer piece by piece at the moment, so I won’t really get to playing this 'till next week, but most of my guildmates were complaining about those very two things as well. And they’re very happy to hear that they might be fixed.

Everything else you said also agrees pretty well with the people I know who are playing this a ton. They all love it, and I’m very eager to get started next week. A few of them REALLY like the diplomacy stuff, as well, by the way.

All really good to hear.

The most amusing, “wtf?” bug so far: I make my character, and log into the game. I materialize with moderate lag at the same moment some other human does, a guy with short gray hair. I decide my character looks funny, and log out to remake it. Except now in my character selction screen, the guy with the gray hair is there, overlapped with my character.

He seldom shows up now, but every now and then, I’ll select my character and Gray Boy will appear. Sheesh, I know girl gamers are rare, but I didn’t think I’d find a stalker this quickly. :smiley:

Speaking of character creation, the options of character customization are omgwtfbbq! You can make detailed adjustments of your characters in amazing ways-- longer nose, smaller eyes, shorter chin, fuller cheeks… and my favorite, breast size and “lift”. On the downside, there are only about 4 different hairstyles you can choose right now, and they nerfed the degree to which you can modify your appearance (apparently to keep people from making truly hideous characters; I saw a thread on the Vanguard forums that was basically an ugly character contest). Still, it’s really nice to have that much control over your appearance. I think you can also make changes to your appearance after you’ve leveled your character, which is awesome.

Hope you like the game. Kiros. :slight_smile:

Looking over the Vanguard site, I find myself wondering why the OP would even bother with it? Why not check out GuildWars? I say this, since IMO Vanguard is a mix of EQ, EQ2, and GW. ANet is also very good with customer service, and the graphics and such were made by the team who left Blizzard to go on in 2000 to begin work on GuildWars with NCSoft. It’s also got excellent online references if you get stuck, GuildWiki is very handy. To qoute from NCsoft’s 2005 product catalog,

As I said though, they give excellent customer service in GuildWars, which is a CCORPG. You can play PvP, or PvEnvironment or even do both.

From what I’ve heard, GuildWars isn’t very good. I wanted to play it myself when I first heard about it, but all the comments I’ve heard and read since have been negative.

As for why anyone should “bother”… why does anyone try anything new? One of the things I like about it is the fact that it’s new and not much is known about it.

Reviewing the Wikipedia entry you linked to, GuildWars appears to have little in common with Vanguard. I don’t think it’s a valid alternative.