Vaping and smoking

There’s a radio ad I’ve heard a few times recently that has a person say something like, “I wanted to quit smoking, but I couldn’t do it. Then a friend told me to try [brand of vaping stuff]. Within a few days I had totally quit smoking.”

It seems pretty clear to me that the person is vaping instead of smoking. I mean, it’s not like the person vaped a few days and gave up nicotine entirely.

On the one hand, I guess if you’re vaping you are not in a literal sense smoking. But it seems to me that if you made a resolution to quit smoking and took up vaping instead that it’s wrong to brag about how you quit smoking.

So I’ll ask all of you – does substituting vaping for cigarettes mean you’ve quit smoking?

On a related topic, do insurance applications now ask about vaping in addition to smoking?

Not sure why it would matter, but I once was a very heavy smoker (2+ packs a day). I quit many years ago.

Depends on your definition of “smoke”. What comes out of those “vaping” devices is smoke by any traditional definition, and is generated by the same mechanism as other smokes. Some stuff, oils typically, are getting boiled off and rapidly recondense into a cloud of tiny particles.

Perhaps the genius of the vaping revolution was announcing that this isn’t smoke and these people aren’t smoking. I’m not sure how they got others to believe them, but it’s only a claim by the people who wanted to sell this smoking product without being subject to rules about smoking.

Uh, no. A traditional definition of smoke is the cloud of particles coming from burning material. Nothing is burning in a vaporizer. I’m not going rant about how safe vaping is, to a large degree the jury is still out, but it most certainly doesn’t include many of the worst carcinogens found in the smoke of burning plant material.

To me at least; no.

And although there could be companies that do ask about vaping I do not personally know of one but I also assume its only a matter of time. Places (such as amusement parks) were fast including vaping in their smoking bans and as the science catches up I expect it to be considered for insurance although probably at a lower rate/level.

We don’t have the real epidemiological evidence, yet, but I bet vaping will turn out to be nearly as risky as smoking. My understanding is that smoking tobacco increases your odds of lung cancer though two mechanisms. It directly exposes your lungs to carcinogens, and the nicotine also paralyzes the cilia in the lungs that ordinarily remove crap from them. And this is one of the reasons smoking tobacco is associated with a higher risk of lung cancer than smoking pot, even though pot smoke has more tars. (Of course, people smoke fewer joints than cigarettes, too, and there are no doubt other differences.) It’s also a reason that people exposed to both tobacco and asbestos have a higher risk of lung cancer* than you would see if you just added the risks. Because nicotine makes whatever you are exposed to worse.

So if vaping still bathes the lungs in nicotine, I bet it’s pretty risky for lung cancer. And of course the heart risk is primarily associated with nicotine.
*People usually think of mesothelioma when they talk about cancers induced by asbestos, but asbestos also significantly increases the risk of lung cancer.

I agree, and this is listed as Truth #1 in a recent Johns Hopkins article about e-cigarettes; however the other four Truths listed in the link are far less flattering to the vaping industry.

I agree that there’s a lot we don’t know about the long-term hazards of inhaling chemical vapors from e-cigs (both by users and involuntarily by “secondhand vapers”. To that extent we’re guinea pigs. What we already know about vaping hazards (including harms from nicotine alone) is disturbing.

Meantime we have substantial numbers of people (many of them young) steered into long-term dependence on a highly addictive product, which can lead to development of a regular smoking habit. The vaping industry also encourages vaping as a means of smoking cessation despite its limited demonstrable success in this regard and the existence of other, effective means of quitting smoking.

While I will make no claim that nicotine is in any way safe or that the chemicals in vaping are safe; nicotine does not cause cancer. It is several of the other thousands of chemicals that you expose yourself to because of the addiction to nicotine that increase your cancer risk.

Vaping was effectively marketed to kids as safe and acceptable, as an ex-smoker I have a problem with that. But if there was data that it was less harmful for cancer or even at the same risk of cancer it could be useful for harm reduction. The carbon monoxide and the implications for cardio health are probably just as large or larger with smoking.

With all forms of addiction harm reduction is preferable to nothing but obviously less desirable than secession.

I do think we should apply pressure against nicotine addiction and not the delivery methods only in general though.

What does it mean to “cause cancer”? If inhaling nicotine means that all the other gunk you breath sits longer in your lungs, and that increases the risk of lung cancer, does that mean the other stuff “caused the cancer”, or is the nicotine also causal?

Something “causes cancer” when that substance which causes genetic changes that result uncontrolled cell growth and tumor formation.

If you could get someone to actually pay for and smoke “nicotine free” cigarettes they would still have an elevated risk of lung cancer.

You can buy herbal cigarettes which are nicotine-free. The fact they are sold indicates that some people smoke them. I have no idea whether they have an elevated risk of lung cancer. In fact, I imagine it may be a bit hard to test – I suspect that many who buy them are tobacco cigarette smokers who hope that smoking the nicotine-free ones will make it easier to quit. (When I quit, I missed the mechanics of smoking. In fact one of the reasons I started smoking was to something to do with my hands in some awkward moments. Someone would ask a question I didn’t know how to answer, I’d pull out a cigarette, put it between my lips, fish out my lighter, and light my smoke. All this gave me several seconds to furiously think of my options and word my answer.

Here is a good recent article which can dispel much of the misinformation being presented here and in the popular ‘scare’ media. Note that this information is from the British National Health Service, not some vaping manufacturer or activist group.
Public Health England maintains vaping is 95% less harmful than smoking

I started vaping when ecigs first became available but continued to smoke for a couple of years – then one day I ran of cigarettes and just never bought any more; it’s now something like eight years since I’ve had a cigarette. I’ve gone from getting out of breath climbing the cellar stairs to taking a daily three mile walk or 12 mile bike ride.

If using e-cigs helped you quit smoking and just left you with long-term nicotine addiction, I suppose that’s a relatively good thing.

Testimonials aside, there’s evidence that vaping is a poor long-term strategy for smoking cessation.

*"A 2017 European study concluded that vaping does not help individuals quit smoking. Instead, researchers said, it’s likely these individuals become “dual-users.”

And now, a new study published in PLOS One contends that vaping helps almost nobody to quit smoking.

More than 850 individuals selected from GfK Global’s KnowledgePanel participated in the observational study and a follow-up interview.

Survey data results found that 90 percent of smokers who vaped at the beginning of the study were still smoking one year later.

This study builds on the previous research that suggested vaping helps individuals stop or decrease smoking during a three-month period.

While vaping might help promote short-term smoking cessation, the new study’s finding strongly suggests it is an ineffective long-term strategy.

Previous studies have drawn similar conclusions as well."*

There are other methods of quitting smoking with better track records that do not require users to remain nicotine addicts for long periods (or the rest of their life), do not promote nicotine addiction among young people, and do not expose others to secondhand fumes.

(Disclosure: I started smoking at the age of 53 after my wife died. I smoked cigarettes for about six years, then transitioned to vaping over a period of about one year. I have ONLY vaped for the last five years.)

I don’t think that anyone would argue that vaping isn’t better for a person than smoking, and that doing neither is better still. Based on my own experience, I would actually view a proposal to ban smoking (sale and use of cigarettes and cigars) gradually over a period of years very positively…as long as I can continue vaping. The transition to vaping was very easy for me. I often go weeks using only 0% nicotine juice in my devices. IMHO, a lot of smoking is the nervous habit of starting a cigarette and having something in your hands. Vaping addresses this.

Re the OP’s original questions, I have always equated vaping with smoking as far as restrictions by locations. Can’t smoke here? Then I can’t vape.

I’m more challenged by the health information forms that ask if I smoke. Is it smoking if I vape high-nicotine juice every day? How about zero-nicotine juice? The forms need to catch up with the times.

When a healthcare professional asks if I smoke, I always answer that I do not use tobacco in any form, other than a rare cigar. I also point out that I use cannabis daily. How they translate that is their problem

They should be asking; “do you use nicotine, and if so, in what form?”, “do you use cannabis, and if so, in what form?”

For** Anny Middon** a side note. I have an older friend who gave up smoking in 1979. He is currently being treated for throat cancer caused by the fact he smoked for ten years even though he gave up 40 years ago. As an ex smoker (for 30 years) that didn’t fill me with much joy.

I’m a dual user and I love vaping as an augment to my nicotine consumption. It tastes good and is an easy way to get my nicotine fix when I am around my sons or indoors somewhere.

But I never went into vaping with the intent to quit smoking altogether, although I don’t smoke as many cigarettes as I used to. It’s the same with marijuana.

Having been a smoker for nearly 20 years before I switched to vaping about 5 years ago, I can certainly say that, as far as short term health effects go, at least, vaping is far, far, far healthier than smoking. I am much healthier in every way than I was 5 years ago, even though I am 5 years older.

I still use nicotine, and will probably do so until the day I die. I was hooked on the stuff probably in vitro. As a child, just leaving the smoke filled house and going to school caused me to go into detox, nicotine cravings as a kindergartener are lots of fun.

As soon as I was able to, I started smoking cigarettes myself. That helped my anxieties and stress immensely.

I’ve tried quitting. I’ve quit for months at a time, even going for well over a year without a cigarette. But every day, every hour, every minute, I still craved that nicotine. It was a constant stress in my life, requiring a constant state of tension, like having to urinate, and not being able to, being thirsty, and not having water, being hungry, and not having food. Something was missing from my body, and my body told me that with every waking moment. I’d wake up craving a cigarette. I’d drive to work with the same craving. I’d eat lunch, and my body would demand some sweet smoke before it would be happy digesting my food. After dinner was the worst, just sitting there, not smoking, and still not smoking.

So yeah, that was not sustainable, and when I had a serious crisis in my life, and I wasn’t able to deal with the crisis as well as the permanent state of anxiety my withdrawl put me in, I went right back to smoking.

Vaping is different. I still feel nicotine cravings, but they aren’t as intense. I don’t feel the need to smoke an entire cigarette every time I get a fix. If I’m home, I’ll just do a puff or two, and go back to what I was doing. If I’m at work, I’ll step outside to go get the mail or something, and take a couple of puffs then. When I smoked, I certainly didn’t want to waste the cigarette, so I burned the whole thing down, making me less productive in that I’d use 5 minutes on a cig break, rather than the 15 seconds I spend puffing a vape, as well as dumping more nicotine into my system than I really needed at that moment.

I still smoke a very occasional cigarette. If I am out with some of my friends who still smoke, once a month or less, I might bum one off of one of them, and I usually only smoke half of it, if that. When I was a smoker, I don’t know if I ever actually enjoyed cigarettes, so much as “enjoyed” not being in withdrawal. But the very occasional cigarette is actually pleasurable. Back when I was trying to quit, smoking a cigarette a month was not something that was possible, it would just reset my cravings and make it that much harder to stay away.

As far as location, sure, for the most part, I don’t vape where I can’t smoke. The exception would be in my or other’s homes who vape, but don’t smoke. After having my house smoke free for 5 years, I don’t let anyone smoke in it anymore, but I vape, and have no problem with others doing so.

What to do with teens who vape? I dunno, but I see it as more of an educational issue than an enforcement issue. It’s not like people weren’t smoking underage. I certainly was, as was most of my peer group. It was a bit annoying getting ahold of smokes, but it wan’t all that hard. In some ways, I see vapes as being harder to obtain for minors than cigarettes.

But sure, some kids are going to vape, just as they used to (and still do) smoke. I see it as a harm reduction, the jury may be out on some long term effects, but vaping is hands down so much healthier than smoking in the short and mid-term, and I think it will be likely that it will be so in the long term as well.

Can we show that there is a direct increase in underage tobacco use specifically due to vaping? I don’t think so, if nothing else, I don’t think that surveys are very accurate. I smoked for years in school, and several times a year, we were given surveys about our drug habits, and everyone I knew answered that we didn’t have any drug habits. Vaping is more socially acceptable than smoking was, and so can easily account for more people willing to admit it on an “anonymous” survey.

As far as banning flavors, I dunno about that. Not really a deal breaker for me. I will still vape the same. But I do like having flavors to pick from, and I’m not really seeing that it is the flavors themselves that is marketing vaping to kids, but the actual drug itself.

Kids today are under quite a bit of stress. Nicotine helps to relieve those feelings of stress. Unless we choose to medicate them with stimulants like adderall or ritalin, they may choose to self medicate, with stimulants like nicotine, for much the same reasons. It’s not the strawberry flavor that makes them want to take a hit, it is the unrealistic expectations of their family, school, peers and society. I didn’t smoke because Joe Camel was cool, I smoked because I wanted nicotine. “Adults” try to understand the motivations of “kids”, and get it completely wrong. Banning flavors won’t stop teens from vaping. Even flavorless vape juice tastes far better than the nasty, nasty burning tobacco my generation willingly sucked into our lungs.

Well, you’re still dependent on nicotine, and you’re still taking stuff (propylene glycol) into your lungs. I’m not sure if we know how bad propylene glycol is for you.

But, technically of course you aren’t smoking. You’re not combusting stuff… You also don’t smell like cigarette butts, you’re not taking tar, particulates and god knows what else into your lungs. You’re polluting my environment less (if at all). I feel like that’s got to count as some kind of moral and health victory.

Though, propylene glycol isn’t a super mysterious new chemical. The vaping delivery system might make some notable health difference but it is a very commonly used product already, absorbed into human bodies for decades. It’s used in food, medicines and cosmetics.

Smoke usually comes from fires, but not necessarily. It also comes from oil (and other things) on hot surfaces. If you get cooking oil on the element of an electric stove, it smokes. If you get engine oil on the hot exhaust piping, it smokes. If you overheat electronic components or wire hot enough, they will often smoke, and technical people joke that the devices failed “because all the magic smoke leaked out”. “Smoke” has long been the word to describe the haze that comes from oil or other materials exposed to a hot enough heat source. Can you think of any other word used to name this haze?

The word “vapor” was never used to describe this haze. Vapor is transparent gas, or at least it was before companies like Juul started confusing the terms to sell their products. The gamble they tried was to exclude themselves from all the regulations surrounding smoking by just declaring that their smoke wasn’t smoke. It beats me why this worked, but it mostly did.

You may well be right that their smoke “most certainly doesn’t include many of the worst carcinogens found in the smoke of burning plant material”.

Here are some references about smoke and vapor. The mechanism used in “e-cigarettes” is described in each of the smoke references, and not in the vapor references:

Smoke: A solid or liquid aerosol, the result of incomplete combustion or condensation of superasaturated vapor; most smoke particles are submicrometer in size.
Aerosol Measurement Principles Techniques and Applications
Willeke & Baron, 1993

Definition of cooking oil smoke point
The smoke point of an oil is the temperature at which the oil starts to smoke. This is not to be confused with the flash point which is the temperature at which the oil vapors will ignite.

While the sages and learned men among us may espouse that where there’s smoke, there’s fire, sometimes — especially where engines are concerned — smoke is just smoke. […] Oil smoke has a distinct smell, like an asphalt parking lot or roofing tar on a hot day. Odds are good that if you’ve got any kind of smoke coming from the engine bay, then it’s due to oil leaking from somewhere and dropping onto the exhaust manifold or catalytic converter.
http://blog.autointhebox.com/my-car-has-an-engine-smoking-burning-smell-but-is-not-overheating.html

Magic Blue Smoke Refilling Kit […] Through a proprietary procedure using our inverse tetra-grammatron phase inductance focusing screen (TGPIFS for short), we were able to easily resurrect any IC reliably. Simply place the phase ring of the TGPIFS directly over your IC, inject your smoke, and you’re done!

In physics a vapor (American) or vapour (Rest of the World) is a substance in the gas phase at a temperature lower than its critical temperature, which means that the vapor can be condensed to a liquid by increasing the pressure on it without reducing the temperature. A vapor is different from an aerosol. An aerosol is a suspension of tiny particles of liquid, solid, or both within a gas.

Vapor. A substance in the gaseious state, but below its critical temperature, is called a vapor.
Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia Sixth Edition, 1983