I guess you missed that my hyperbole has nothing to do with controlling the access and exposure of children to anything. I’m against a vape flavour ban.
Shouldn’t we ban chewing tobacco? Adults might purchase chewing tobacco for a child under the age of 18 and supply the tobacco to them.
Shouldn’t we require all cars to have biometric ignitions? Otherwise, children might obtain the keys their caretakers left unsecured, obtain access to the vehicle, and cause a car accident.
Shouldn’t we ban all guns? Caretakers might leave firearms unsecured in a residential home, and a kid might obtain access to the weapon and deliberately or accidentally fire it, causing injury.
Shouldn’t we also ban all pornography from the internet? Caretakers might leave their kids alone with a device that can access the internet, and a kid might enter the address of a site containing pornography and see it.
And knives. And sharp corners. And electric outlets without safety covers and GFCIs.
Everywhere. Think of the children. They must be safe.
Much of the angst displayed in this thread boils down to something we’ve seen on this board before - (ex) smokers feeling such a strong sense of entitlement that they will countenance no restrictions on their new habit, vaping. It seems to be a natural outgrowth of smokers’ entitlement that led to battles over restricting smoking in public places, package warnings etc.
The insistence that nothing should be allowed to interfere with their new vaping habit (even at the cost of a new generation of nicotine addicts) is not going to fly either. It’s a shame though that so much energy has to be expended on an avoidable conflict.
And why shouldn’t I feel entitled? It’s not society’s job to make all adult choices unpalatable to children. Alcohol actually kills thousands of kids a year and sends hundreds of thousands to the hospital. What will a vaping addiction do? Maybe some health problems in the coming decades. Sorry if I don’t think we need to jump to full nanny state over that. I’m fine with severely restricting advertising and in store displays. I’m fine with crippling fines to people who provide it to underage people. I’m fine with strong testing and labeling rules. I’ll even choke down some sin taxes. But sorry, yes, I feel entitled to my choice of adult indulgence.
Yup you do.
Meanwhile FWIW I’d actually be fine allowing flavored vapes … under significant controls strictly enforced.
I’d add to your list not allowed in the single use form factor that most kids use and prefer and that has been associated with the youth vaping explosion.
The easy to use factor is only half of the equation that fueled the explosion. It’s also that the form that allowed them to be effectively sold out of convenience stores. Once that happened, kids are always going to find a less than conscientious store.
Then how would you feel about restricting sales of flavored products to vaping stores only (which like liquor stores have more to lose by breaking the law) and not allowing that form factor to come flavored? (In addition to the items you have already listed as being fine with.)
Yes, SamualA, in fact we must think of the children. Very seriously we must. Child safety caps for example may be an inconvenience to adults but it was decided that adults are not entitled to having a default of them not being there. And I’d argue with a gun owner who feels entitled to leave a loaded weapon in his nightstand with kids in the house that he should not be entitled to do so. I have argued with nurses who work with sick children that they are not entitled to not get various vaccines including the flu shot. There are, or at least should be, limits to adult entitlements.
Not yet. I’d push vaping hard as an alternative to smoking until that 14% drops to something like 5% maybe even lower. That’s about the point where cigarettes would stop being a valued retail product, and the manufacturers would be hard pressed to fight the ban.
At which point, we can turn our attention to the scourge of vaping.
Hell, you want to restrict convince stores from selling tobacco products entirely, that’s fine with me. I like the guys at the tobacco/vape shop, and they wouldn’t mind the business.
But yeah, kids are going to get drugs if they want drugs. I stole cigarettes from my parents, I got older friends to buy them for me, I “knew” the shops in my town that didn’t card.
Kids are not taking up vaping because of cherry cheesecake flavor. They are taking up vaping because they want to alter their mental state with drugs. Whether self medication is a wise idea or not, that is the reason. They are not happy with how their mind feels, and they want to change that. People used to take up smoking all the time, and there were no “child” flavors then.
So, while I have no problem whatsoever with doing what we can to prevent the sale of nicotine products to kids, we might want to start looking into what causes these kids to desire to self medicate, rather than futility try to prevent kids from getting hold of the medication that they desire, as that is close to futile.
Where are you (vape advocates) on this (admittedly developing) story:
CDC: 153 cases of severe lung disease in 16 states possibly linked to vaping
As it says in the article, we don’t know what the cause is, so it’s hard to form an opinion based on that.
Personally, I think it will come out that there was some bad juice that got shipped out, whether it be a flavor or a base, and I would be more than happy with regulations that ensure that what people buy to put into their vapes is unadulterated.
Hopefully, it will be tracked down, and whatever supplier is shipping contaminated materials will be stopped from doing so in the future.
When some worker in a field doesn’t wash his hands between crapping and picking lettuce, or a part in a slaughterhouse or butchery shop isn’t cleaner, then we get people dying and made sick from e coli. When some cook on a cruise line doesn’t wash his hands, everyone gets listeriosis. I don’t see this as being any different, other than Vaping is more controversial than going on cruises or eating kale.
CDC- smoking kills 500,000 Americans a year, 50000 of them thru second hand smoke.
and you want us to get het up about 153 sick people instead of a half million dead?
I don’t think anyone is saying that we have to ignore the problem with smoking and take up the problem with vaping instead.
It looked to me that’s exactly what Sailboat was implying.
Oh, and for the record, I dont vape. Or smoke,
This isn’t why kids start taking up vaping or smoking. Nobody makes a conscious decision to “alter their mental state with drugs” when the drug in question is nicotine. It starts with someone in the group hanging out, having a cigarette, or a vape - then the other kids want to try it, so he lets them try it. Then some of them get vapes or cigarettes on their own. Then it becomes a social thing, usually done furtively because it’s not allowed and that makes it more exciting. Many of these kids don’t continue doing it habitually once the novelty value wears off. But some of them do, and those are the nicotine addicts.
It’s quite possible to be concerned about both.
You might have a point if 1) there were no other pathways for quitting smoking, 2) everyone who vapes does so to quit smoking, and 3) the recently identified 153 cases were the total number of people to be harmed by vaping both now and in coming years.
Your argument makes about as much sense as saying we should ignore mass shootings, since vastly greater numbers of people die from smoking-related causes.
Right, people usually say things like “Let’s get fucked up”, not “Let’s use drugs to alter our mental state.” But yes, that is a conscious decision.
I’m not sure what your argument is here. Are you saying that people don’t use drugs because it makes them feel good?
People, especially kids, are curious, and sure, if someone has something they haven’t tried before, they will be interested in trying it. If they find that they like it, then they will continue doing it. I do no entirely discount peer pressure, but I also think that it is more than a bit overestimated.
But, none of that has anything to do with my post. What I am responding to here, what I am arguing against, is that kids take up vaping because of the the flavors. This is not something that you have argued for in your post, so I assume you agree that, as I said in the post you quoted and responded to, “Kids are not taking up vaping because of cherry cheesecake flavor.”
I’m curious, for those that are addicted to nicotine, and have children, did you try and discourage your children from taking up nicotine?
As the leading cause of people starting to smoke, is that their parents smoke. Peer pressure is next.
k9bfriender obviously we get into IMHO and anecdotes here but my belief is that your position is a very ignorant one.
Did you really take your first drink/toke/smoke/whatever to get fucked up? Nah. It was a social thing which then hooks some because of both the some perceived positive of the experience (inclusive of the buzz, but not necessarily only that, flavor etc can be part of that as well, and the ongoing social reinforcement of being part of a group, having a group activity/shared interest, having a prop, and so on), and for some after some time because of a dependency that morphs into an addiction, in which the positive is no longer the drive but the avoidance of the negative of withdrawal.
To say that flavors that appeal are not part of that is as unto saying that taste of food doesn’t impact overeating because people eat out of hunger, or that there would be as much alcohol consumption if the only form of it was Malort.
Hell drinking is the same way. How many drink, as kids or as adults, primarily to get fucked up/alter their mental state? Not most. Many many more drink with the main focus being the social activity and the impact on mental state in service of that social activity, as a lubricant of sorts. Getting shit-faced is not the goal for most even if a slight buzz is enjoyed by many as part of the process.
Kids are not choosing to the most powerful fuck-you-up substances and getting them no matter what. Not too many High Schoolers are dropping acid right now. By your way of thinking, why not?
There has been a nearly two decade decline in teen alcohol use rates, including over the same last five year time period that teen vaping has exploded. How does that mesh with your thinking that they’ll try whatever something someone has that they haven’t tried before?
“see what it feels like” is a pretty adjacent concept to a kid trying drugs for the first time. I think “what is it ike to be drunk” isn’t that uncommon a thought for a kid trying drinking for the first time.
And when you first start smoking, you do get a rush off it. It doesn’t become a meaningless placeholder addiction until later.