Why don’t you try being amused, instead?
Are you afraid that they will TAKE OVER THE WORLD and force everyone to stop eating meat? If that’s what you’re afraid of, you’re afraid of something extremely unlikely to happen, and that is an irrational fear.
Scylla, if you refuse to understand why someone who treats what they eat with a great deal of care and attention might possibly have an objection to eating meat into which they can’t tell what has been pumped then I don’t think we can possibly meat (oho) on any common ground.
All that I was looking for was recognition that according to another’s personal priorities and ethics, eating meat might be non gratis. This is not a reflection on anybody else, but merely consistant with their own ethics, mores and desires. I was hoping that at then end of it all, next time you met a vegetarian you might instead of thinking “stupid flake”, take the time to offer them a word of support for daring to action on their beliefs in the face of derision and difficulty. Apparently this is beyond you.
Frankly I pity you your lack of empathy.
pan
If that were the case, you might make sense. As it is, there is a very specific list of what supplements may or may not be added to beef, and how long one must wait after they are added before the beef is slaughtered for consumption.
In this fashion you can know exactly not only what is in the meat, but what was in the meat at any time of its life.
These controls are stricter than they are for vegetables. Your refusal to acknowledge these basic truths is getting old.
Your statement is simply false. Since you have no answer for these rebuttals, I must conclude you’re simply obstinate and intractable.
Well yes, of course. That’s true. Then again, that would also hold true for the guy that wears the tin foil hat to shield his brain from mind control beams.
Well, if somebody was doing it for goboy’s reasons, I might do so. If somebody was doing it out of idiotic fears, I’d think them an idiot. If somebody was doing it for religious reasons, I could respect that. If somebody was doing it for moral reasons I’d think their worldview was rather shallow and naive.
Validating stupidity? Yes.
Oh I got tons of empathy. I can understand all too well how people center their lives and derive identity from meaningless drivel and falsehoods. I understand very clearly how easy it is to delude oneself. I can see with crystal clarity how in a scary and modern world one would seek to attain some measure of control over one’s own fate, and would be willing to grasp at any straw to get it.
I can understand how nice it must feel to think you are doing the right thing, and acting responsibly, and taking care of yourself, and being a good citizen of the planet, and all that happy horsehit, how one is being careful and prudent.
But it’s still bullshit. The truth is that vegetarianism for the reasons you’ve described is merely a psychological decoration, an appearance of control, a semblance of order.
I can even surely understand a blind unwillingness to realize these facts.
On top of empathizing, I can even sympathize. The world is a scary place, and one’s fate is uncertain moment to moment. People feel that they need to impose order, and gain control.
So yeah, I sympathize too.
What I won’t do is validate a dream world.
And just to be perfectly clear. Fruits and vegetables are routinely sprayed with deadly fucking poison of proven toxicity to man. These herbicides and pesticides will kill an exposed man in a matter of hours.
The plants absorb this shit.
These chemicals are thousands of times more toxic and deadly and dangerous than anything they stick in a cow.
And you’re trying to validate a fear of vitamins, innoculations and growth hormones given to cattle, in some cases years before they’re slaughtered when plants get sprayed weeks before or even days before harvest?\
Which do you think represents the risk here?
If your body is such a temple don’t you at least owe it to yourself to be educated before you make decisions affecting it?
I mean Jesus fucking Christ, I can’t even beleive you’re arguing “Oh who knows what they put into cows. I don’t want to eat them because I don’t know what horrible and dangerous shit cocktails they inject them with.”
Well it ain’t pesticide. It ain’t poison. It ain’t even in the cow any more by the time you eat it.
You cannot say the same thing about veggies.
I mean come on Kabbes, your smarter than this.
Hmm. I usually try to eat organic veggies, which supposedly don’t have that “shit” on them.
I won’t get into this debate you’re having with kabbes, because frankly, he’s doing a far better job than I ever could.
I just wanna say, Scylla, you certainly are exploring your “inner asshole” here.
I am a religious person, and I always hated the “holier than thou” religious person. I don’t want to be like that. Also, I am a vegetarian, but I always hated the “holier than thou” vegetarians. I don’t want to be like that.
And now I encounter you, the epitome of a “holier than thou” meat eater. And I just think you are being ludicrous here. You think some of our reasons for begin veggie are “silly” and a “delusion” and you could not be more condescending on this thread. Well, phooey on you. You are far worse than any annoying “holier than thou” vegetarian I could ever imagine. I still cannot imagine why you care about this. And I think of all the things in this world to get worked up about, what someone else eats or doesn’t eat just shouldn’t be a huge deal.
I only care about this issue because I am so bloody SICK of being pestered about something that is mostly a private issue. My diet choices are my business. Often, when someone asks me why I don’t eat meat, I just tell them, “Because I don’t want to”. That usually does not satisfy them. They want to probe into the REAL “why”, like they are itching for a debate. I find that some people are just a little too obsessed about why I don’t want to eat meat. Why do some of you seem to care? Could anyone answer that?
Scylla**
I’m sorry you don’t acknowledge the link between BSE and CJD, and the fact that the extent of the damage is at this time unknown.
I’m sorry that you don’t recognise that attitudes towards feed haven’t changed and that people still prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and go “la la la”.
I’m sorry that you don’t realise that when you’re feeding animals that which they haven’t evolved to eat, you risk them developing further diseases in the future - diseases that can then be passed along the food chain.
I’m sorry you don’t see that injecting drugs into the animal also falls into this category.
I’m especially sorry you don’t realise that a vegetarian who is careful what they eat would only eat *organically grown[/ig] veg. We’re talking about principled people here - kindly give them some credit for consistancy.
I’m particularly sorry that you equate the documented dangers of the above with space melons and the harmless steps to avoid the risks with wearing tin foil on your head. I’m sorry you don’t realise how unbelievable arrogant and blinkered that view is.
I’m sorry that you don’t see any of the sociological grounds for vegetarianism as in any way even vaguely valid.
I’m sorry that you don’t see that eating meat means the direct slaughter of an animal and that some people just don’t want to be responsible for that.
I’m really fucking sorry that you don’t understand that for some people, the meat on their plate and the animal that it was are intertwined and the very thought of eating it makes them ill.
I’m sorry you don’t see that if you believe in pld’s philosophy that there is no significant difference between humans and non-human animals, eating meat is not significantly different to eating a human. Further, babies die every day and there’s nothing we can do about it, so why don’t you just eat the ones that cop it? Hell - why don’t we just farm them? Because the very idea of it repulses you. Well understand that for the vegetarian, the very idea of eating a cow repulses them.
And I’m sorry that despite the fact that you claim to admire principled people who stand up for themselves, the moment you encounter someone who’s principles you evidently don’t understand you judge them, ridicule them and don’t recognise that they’ve made an inconvenient and difficult decision to put their money where their mouth is.
I’m not a vegetarian. I don’t have that philosphy - I think that there is a significant difference. I’m not willing to forgo the convenience of eating meat and mass produced vegetables. I, perhaps foolishly, place my trust in the government to set appropriate regulations.
But to vegetarians out there I say - well done for standing up for what you believe in and good luck.
pan
Most of all I’m sorry that I typed [/ig] instead of the same without the g.
I’m sorry I’m stuck at home without email so I can’t ask a mod to change that, thus easing everybody’s eyes. Maybe a mod-in-passing could do it, or someone else could e-mail on my behalf?
horn-swillit!
pan
Maybe we should all just start eating rocks… it’d be easier than having to deal with this pooch-screw of a thread.
I mean, Jesus Smith, Scylla, it’s one thing to say “I hate it when Vegetarians act smug and stuck-up because they think I’m better than me.” Hell, I hate it when ANYBODY does that. Such people are dumbshits and should be treated as such.
But it should be painfully obvious that you’re doing a bad job of presenting this point of view.
Kabbes:
I’m sorry that I post reasoned arguments to back up my viewpoint which are wholly ignored, or merely rebutted emotionally.
I think that doing things based on shortsighted or false reasoning is always dangerous. I find little virtue in being true to one’s principles when they are demonstrably false.
Yosemitebabe:
I agree with you on the organically grown vegetable thing. Personally, I think the herbicides they are using these days are fairly innocuous, and they break down very quickly into benign components. I don’t have much of a problem with them, and they are extremely hard to avoid.
The pesticides are another matter though.
Again, this “why do I care thing” is getting old. I’ve addressed it several times, and you just keep repeating it. Ignorance is dangerous. I don’t personally care how one chooses to eat, I do care about a false and dangerous worldview.
Soemthing else that I’ve mentioned that nobody responds to is the idea inherent in morality based vegetarianism, that suffering and death are bad, and one should try not to connect themselves with it.
I think this is a head in the sand attitude for two reasons.
I don’t just think, I’m sure that suffering and death are neither inherently bad or good. They are neutral. Good people who seek to disconnect themselves from the process inevitably fail miserably in any measurable sense. They serve only themselves.
If something is wrong, then simply turning your back and refusing to participate is never enough. Doing nothing to stop something that is wrong is the same as tacit support. If meat-eating is bad, it would not be enough to merely personally opt out.
In this same vein, assuming that some pain and suffering is necessary, some is actually bad, and some is good, then a good person who opts out of the process entirely removes their positive contribution, thereby lessening the whole.
kabbes, you know I hate to nitpick, but to act is already a perfectly useful verb; we don’t need to recruit action into the role.
I think everyone reading this thread will enjoy the latest Tom the Dancing Bug posted at Salon.com this morning.
“Dangerous”? How? Unless you have a lot of stock in the meat industry, and you’re worried that you’ll lose money? Is that it?
Frankly, I tire of people trotting out the “it’s dangerous thinking” excuse for being obnoxious. Sure, we all know there are some really “dangerous” world views. Racism, homophobia, etc. And 'tis true, some extremist veggies can really be a huge pain in the ass. But how big of a deal is it that some people are MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS, merely not eating something? I occasionally encounter people who want to get in my face about one of my private beliefs. My religion, my vegetarianism, whatever. And they invariably say “I just want to get you to think”. And I find that to be the most obnoxious arrogant thing. What? They assume I haven’t thought about it? Who are they to try to “fix” my world view, anyway? Especially when they can’t provide any substantive evidence that my private beliefs are harming anyone in ANY way? What presumptuous arrogance.
I’m religious, and I find certain other denominations’ beliefs “ignorant”. But I’m not going to start huge honking obnoxious threads about each and every religious belief I find “ignorant”. I have a huge problem with religious people (or vegetarians) who are obnoxious and “in your face”, and I’ll argue against that. But when a particular personal belief is as trivial and harmless as NOT eating something, it’s just not worth pissing people off about it. At least not in my mind. Obviously you disagree.
Sez you. Oh, I see you are so “sure” about everything. But you don’t live in a vacuum, and a lot of very intelligent people feel differently than you do. Who are you to say that vegetarians “fail miserably”? If they are happy, if they aren’t infringing upon you, how is are they hurting anyone?
It comes down to this - so what? It’s just food. They don’t want to eat it. So what? So what if you don’t understand their reasons? (You obviously don’t want to.) Some people just DON’T WANT TO EAT MEAT. OK?
yo-babe, reasonable persons have reasons for what they do or not do. If someone asks a vegan or vegetarian “Why don’t you eat meat?” and the answer is “I just don’t want to!” the natural response is “WHY don’t you want to?” Refusing to give the reason(s) shows either that you know that you have no good reason(s) but won’t admit it, or that you don’t have enough respect or trust for your questioner to give them the reason(s).
Don’t you realize how that’s gonna tick off some people?
Another thing, and here I am speaking only about certain vegans and vegetarians: I notice a desire to separate themselves from nature. They have noticed that “nature is red in tooth and claw” and it disgusts them and they wish to separate themselves from it. They see predators as evil and do not wish to be a predator, even a predator-by-proxy, as most people are today. (A person who didn’t kill and butcher that hamburger he just ate is a predator-by-proxy.)
The trouble is that humans are not separate from nature. We are just as much a part of it as any other animal. We can no more escape nature than a bird can fly away from the Earth. Death-by-predation is just as natural a death as death-by-disease or death-by-exposure or death-by-drowning or death-by-anything-else. What difference does it make how the animal died?
From kabbes:
Because cannibalism is not normal human behavior. Anyone who engages in it without sufficient justification (Andean plane crash; cultural/religious ritual) is quite possibly insane or a murderer. And murder is the illegal killing of one’s own kind, not the killing of another kind, like it or not.
A person who exhibits evidence of a false and dangerous worldview on ANY topic may have similar screwy opinions about other things. (See Jack Chick.) It raises suspicions.
So, vegans and vegetarians have their reasons for not eating meat. The trouble is, some of those reasons do not stand up to close scrutiny. If your reasons for doing or not doing something do not bear scrutiny, maybe you ought to change them?
It may be the natural response for you, but don’t pretend that it is for everyone. I think “Because I don’t want to” is a perfectly good reason to refuse to eat something. I, for instance, refuse to eat mushrooms. Why? Because I don’t like eating mushrooms. I just don’t like them. That’s all there is to it. Anyone who persists in asking me why I won’t eat mushrooms after I have already said that I don’t like them is simply being obnoxious, and that is what ticks me off.
Yeah, if they have an axe to grind with vegetarians to begin with, and are itching to get into a big debate with me. I disappoint them by not allowing them their debate. The nerve of me.
It’s FOOD. It’s just FOOD. Do I need to make some long drawn-out explanation about why I won’t eat grits? Or why I don’t drink alcohol? I don’t want to. I don’t like the taste, I find the idea distasteful for whatever reason. Why do I owe anyone any more explanation than that? I’ve never experienced anyone getting “ticked off” because I don’t want to eat grits. Why should they care if I don’t eat meat?
Actually, I do occasionally get people who want to grill me about why I don’t drink. Their attitude and the type of questions they ask suggest that they are thinking “Why doesn’t she drink? Does she think she’s better than me?” And so they get bothered, even though I have done nothing to give them the impression that I’m “better” than them. I see the same thing happening when it comes to my vegetarianim.
If you are personally, deeply affected and harmed by someone believing that this is “evil”, take it up with them as individuals. If you really feel like they are harming you with that belief, please explain it here.
Oh gee. Thanks for the little sermon.
What does this have to do with some people not eating something, as long as they are minding their own business?
Sure it is. Certain cultures do it. It’s normal among some human beings on Planet Earth. It’s normal to eat puppies in certain cultures. It’s normal to rape women in certain cultures. I don’t think you want to bring up “normal” in this debate - because that varies vastly from culture to culture. The fact is, human beings are more than capable of eating human flesh, and still be considered “normal” among their peers.
A person who eats an already dead baby is NOT a murderer. The baby was already dead, they didn’t kill it.
You will have to do better than that. As I pointed out before, some or many religions can be deemed “ignorant” by all of us. I consider beliefs from certain other religions “ignorant”, even though I’m religious myself. ALL of us probably believe in something that someone else considers “ignorant”. So where do you draw the line? Do you think everyone has a right to get in anyone else’s face because they believe in some rather innocuous “ignorant” thing? Because if that’s the case, we’ll be here all day, pestering each other endlessly.
I think you have to take into account more than just the fact that someone doesn’t eat something before you consider them “dangerous”. Please provide some substantive evidence why pldennison, Opal, or any of the rest of us veggies are actually “dangerous” to you. How are we “dangerous”, right this minute, by the mere fact that we say “no thanks, but I’ll have the salad.”
Oh my. That has got to be the biggest pile of bullshit I’ve read in a while. So - all my personal decisions have to “stand up to close scrutiny”? Oh! Oh! Scylla, jab, I don’t want to wear this red top, because I don’t like it. Is that a GOOD ENOUGH REASON for you? Does it “stand up to close scrutiny”? I don’t want to eat sweet potatoes. Is that a good enough REASON for you? Does it “stand up to close scrutiny”? :rolleyes:
Why the HELL should ANY of my personal choices have to stand up to “close scrutiny”? Can’t I just not want to do something, or not eat something, for any old reason at all? How is my NOT EATING something such a serious choice, such a dire decision, that it requires “close scrutiny” anyway? How dare you suggest that I “change” a personal choice because you don’t think it “stands up to close scrutiny”? Whose “close scrutiny” is supposed to matter? Your’s? Scylla’s? Screw that on a pogo stick.
Its because you simply existing forces them to change their beliefs or attack you. If they allow that you have the choice of eating only veggies then they have to allow that they could eat only vegtables too. They can either try to change you or change their world view.
[sub]when I eat salads theres plenty of meat on them[/sub]
Okay, try this one: It seems to be a universal human trait that to refuse the food offered by one’s host is to be rude. Anthropologists visiting indigenous peoples around the world have reported this. Why should Westerners be any different from the Brazilian tribe who expect a visitor to drink some of their home-brewed alcohol (made with genuine human saliva!); or the Armenians who offered a friend of mine some mutton and would have considered it a grave insult if she had refused (she ate it, even though she can’t stand mutton); or the Masai who generously offer their visitors a bowl of cow’s milk mixed with cow’s blood? There are more examples of this; National Geographic has published many, many similar stories over the decades.
Why is this? Simple. “If my food is not good enough for you, you must think you are better than me.” Another reason is that it’s rude to refuse a gift freely given. Many cultures simply do not allow people to refuse gifts. They MUST be accepted or the giver will feel insulted.
I think it’s instinct. I think any tradition that is common to several (if not all) cultures has to be chalked up to instinct or some other origin common to all cultures. The way I see it is that early man depended upon the generosity of his fellows and to refuse that generosity could mean death. We are the descendents of the generous. To refuse to be generous or to refuse generosity goes against our nature, our instinct, and our nature, in turn, caused us to create customs and rules to reinforce it.
So if someone offers you a piece of meat and you refuse, you are telling them their food is not good enough for you. And if his food isn’t good enough for you, what are you saying about him?
And that goes for the meat-eaters who refuse a vegan or vegetarian meal. Someone offers me a free meal, I ain’t gonna turn it down. (Though if it’s really nasty, like taro-root-and-saliva beer, I might suddenly “develop” an allergy!)
Hmm. So the observant Jew is supposed to eat a hamburger if it is offered to him/her? Can we not allow people to just NOT WANT to eat something, for whatever reason? Usually there are at least some dishes at each meal that a person can eat. If they can’t or won’t eat one item on the dinner table, how terrible is this, really? Is it so unheard of to respect a person’s individual choices without getting terribly offended? As long as they are gracious, and say, “It looks delicious, and I am very grateful for the offer, but I think I’ll just have your wonderful salad over here.” That’s so hard to comprehend, especially in our Western culture? That’s so unacceptable, that it is somehow preferable that a hostess watch her guests choke down something truly repugnant to them?
And it still does not explain, or justify, why a meat-eater will get bent out of shape just knowing that I’m veggie. I may be ordering and paying for my own dinner at a restaurant, yet they expect me to “justify” why I don’t order a meat dish. And this is their concern - how?
And you still haven’t answered - how are Opal, pldennison, Spider Woman, and the rest of us veggies dangerous to you?
That should be - an observant Jew would be expected to eat a cheeseburger. [sub]I don’t know if Hamburgers are Kosher or not - I guess it depends.[/sub]
I believe I have already answered that.
Answered what?
If you explained why Opal, pldennison, Spider Woman, and the rest of us were dangerous to you, I must have missed it. Could you please copy and paste your explanation, then?