Veganinanitarianism

The BBQ Pit
341

Anthracite I would guess that there are different levels of feelings on the killing of animals. Some may feel that killing animals is immoral and all who kill them are immoral, but others (myself included) feel that killing animals is rather sad. I am still responsible for many animal deaths by the products I use or have used. So to condemn meat eaters I must also condemn myself.

Since I do feel it is rather sad, of course I would be happy if the number of animals killed was reduced. Does this mean I will join PETA or worse? I don’t think that’s necessary because I believe we are already moving towards less animal cruelty in our society. Organic and vegetarian products are the fastest growing sector in the food business in North America. Enviro and eco stores are popping up all over the place. There are numerous other examples such as schools using computer simulated frogs instead of real frogs for dissection.

I see pld has alluded to some of this.

I prefer to think of vegetarianism as a peacefull movement.

For those people who do take the more extreme view that killing animals is immoral, I would suppose most of them are also peaceful. None that I have meant have been violent. Of course there are nutbars that have slipped down that slope of yours.

And when that glorious day comes, I’ll be right behind you, knife and fork in hand waiting to dig into that yummy vat meat!

Let me also say, many people become vegetarians for gut or sentimental reasons as I did. It has been demonstrated in this thread however, there are very valid reasons for it too. Your understanding of the choice you made can change and become more rational and then the practice of it can become better. We are not static.

342

Yosemitebabe:

We just keep going around in this same circle. Fine. Don’t believe me. I seek the total mandatory eradication of vegetarians everywhere. Nothing else will do. You’ve seen through my thin veil of rhetoric.

It all started when I was 18 and my vegetarian girlfriend broke up with. She made fun of my meat. Because of this I haver an unreasoning hatred and have sworn vengeance on Vegetarians everywhere.
Kabbes:

Yoou’re ignoring arguments in direct response to your points, as well as putting words in my mouth.

If you wish to suggest that vegetarianism based on avoidance of chemical contamination and/or disease is a reasoned stance, you need to do several things.

  1. You will need to show that chemical supplements are dangerous in animals, but not in plants since both receive them.

  2. Using an organic alternative argument, you will need to show that organically grown meat is still dangerous, while vegetables are not.

  3. You will need to demonstrate a significant risk of disease from meat-eating. An argument from ignorance “we don’t know what the effects of…” is worthless. I could use that same argument to discuss the unknown long-term effects of the commonly used “Roundup” herbicide.

343

Yosemitebabe:

Ummm. I don’t recall arguing against vegetarianism as an emotional decision.

If you’re taking that stance then I would be in perfect agreement. Being emotional in nature, it is not a reasoned stance. Same goes for religious reasons.

344

Shall I assume that you missed my post on the bottom of the last page, or are you just ignoring it? It seemed to me both devoid of overly emotional context and pertinent to the rational argument you raise.

WHile I’m here, can I ask for clarification from you and jab1? Exactly which of the many varied reasons for a vegetarian diet are you now claiming are irrational and potentially indicative of a dangerous personality?

345

Boy, this is just getting sadder by the minute. I can’t believe so many otherwise intelligent and sensible people are getting so overwrought by something as meaningless as what somebody else eats.

Carnivores: It is none of your beeswax WHAT anybody else eats. Period. It is not written anywhere that vegetarians are required to justify their dietary choices to you. So what if their reasons seem irrational. I have orthodox Jewish friends who keep kosher. In my deepest heart of hearts, I think the idea of separate meat and milk dishes is silly, but I would never, ever even hint that to my friends because to them it is a sacred expression of their religious faith.

Similarly, being vegetarian is an important part of many Dopers’ spiritual and philosophical outlook. If PLD or Yosemitebabe snack on gazpacho over a cheeseburger, it’s their choice; leave them alone.

346

Except possibly in your OP, where you claimed that anyone who just didn’t like the taste of meat must have a “a psychological disorder, an anti-evolutionary trait, a worthless mutation”. Not liking the taste of meat sounds like an emotional decision to me.

I’m still amazed you’re trying to take the intellectual high ground (“I’m just fighting ignorance!”) after making a statement like that.

347

Re: pesticides & livestock treatments.

To the best of my knowledge, commercial pesticides show no significant internal absorption or osmotic conduction on fruits and vegetables. In other words, I can avoid any health consequences by washing it off or discarding the rind/skin. It is not similarly possible to filter bovine growth hormone out of my chocolate milk.

jab1, it is certainly possible for you to develop a consistent ethic by which anything observed in nature “red of tooth and claw” is judged appropriate for human conduct. The fact that others moght aply a different ethical standard does not make them irrational, delusional, or dangerous.

anthracite, I don’t see your slippery slope. Rather, I should say that I see a clear bifurcation. Some vegetarians believe as you do and become stringent animal rights activists. That is more of a direct consequence than a slippery slope. Other vegetarians make a personal ethical decision based upon their own extension of empathy but recognize that that empathic stand is not so clear as to justify forcefully imposing it upon anyone else.

348

Glad you grasped my sarcastic sense of humor there. :rolleyes:

You’re the one saying we’re “dangerous”. (I mean, COME ON. You’re saying we’re DANGEROUS because we don’t EAT something.) You’re the one who started this thread, and has been duking it out steadfastly for all these pages. You seem quite concerned about us “dangerous” types - wallowing in our ignornance and all.

So - maybe you’re “dangerous” to us as well! Maybe you’ll go down that slippery slope and try to stamp out vegetarianism! You never know! Oh my!

349

If you are referring to me, please have the courtesy (and the balls) to do so by name. Thank you.

If you cannot figure out why it is wrong to kill people but not animals, you’re an even dumber piece of shit than I thought. I swear I have never before met someone who is willing to kill people but not animals. It’s absurd! It’s completely illogical. There are enormous differences between humans and other animals and anyone who refuses to see them is being willfully blind.

No, we must be on the alert for people who have dangerous ideas. An idea different from mine but which poses no threat to me is acceptable. Also, a person who espouses an idea ought to be willing to hear challenges. If you don’t want to run the risk of being challenged, keep your ideas to yourself. But since this is cowardly…

Let me ask all the vegans and vegetarians this: When you saw this thread, did you truly believe your replies to Scylla would go unchallenged? You do realize how naive that is, right?

And it behooves us all to try to change our stupid beliefs. It looks to me like you never try. Only an idiot would be happy with being ignorant. Only an utter fool would say, “I don’t care if my beliefs are wrong! I’m gonna believe 'em anyway!”

BTW, what beliefs of YOURS are “fundamentally stupid”? Do you have the nerve to list them? I don’t have any stupid beliefs.

You’re an idiot, dennison. (And yes, I DO remember how much it pisses you off for me to refer to you by your last name. And don’t YOU forget that this is the Pit.)

350

OK. I’m talking about jab1.

Um, where did I ever say such a thing? Please find me one single post. One. Just one. One where I have said out right that it is inherently wrong to kill animals (hint: I have stated throughout this thread that it is NOT wrong to kill animals, that it is wrong to cause unnecessary suffering). One where I have said it is OK to kill people. If you are accusing me of espousing such a thing, you are a fucking liar, and I am going to ask to have you banned. I will gladly have arguments with people, but I will not be slurred and defamed by the likes of a fucking half-wit little turd like you.

And you still haven’t. Liar. Or have you missed me posting in every single fucking death penalty thread in opposition to capital punishment? You are a fucking liar.

I see you read about as well as Milo does, you little lying fuckwit.

You mean like, “It is always wrong to ever kill anyone, ever”?

Yeah. It’s not like I ever used to be a Fundamentalist Christian, you lying little bitch.

Then you must be in utter fucking bliss, you fucking piece of human shit.

You first, liar.

Except for “It is always wrong to ever kill a person at any time.” A sick little part of me hopes you’re one day faced with taking the life of a murderer or watching your loved ones slaughtered before your eyes. You can sit there with your fundamentally stupid belief knowing you could have saved them but were too much of a fucking ignoramus to do it. I hope the guilt drives you insane, asshole.

351

Just thought I’d take this to Page 8 with a little advice for PLD:

Why don’t you take that hard-on you seem to have developed for me, and stick it in a bowl of bean curd, microwaved to the proper erotic warmth and consistency?

By my count, that’s at least three times you’ve brought up my name in rantings to other people.

You didn’t get enough intellectual masturbation in the positively comical “Liberals are more intelligent” GD thread (that you, like clockwork, contributed to)?

Whack away, then!

And get the fuck over yourself while you’re at it.

352

Oooh, classy. Fine, I made a mistake. I was wrong. Sometimes I falsely attribute things said by one person to another. I do not do this on purpose. Nevertheless, I apologize.

pld, you say

And yet you are against the death penalty even if the murderers are executed painlessly. Huh? Excuse me for finding this inconsistent, especially from someone who thinks there is no fundamental difference between himself and a bull. So if bulls were killed by lethal injection, you’d be fine with it? (It would probably make the meat taste funny, though…)

I am a moral absolutist. I believe it is wrong to kill human beings. Period. There is no exception to that rule. You don’t agree with it, too bad. I don’t decide what’s right or wrong by wondering “What does pld think…? After all, he is never, ever wrong about anything, so I will believe the same as he…”

At least you admitted it is sick of you to wish my loved ones to be brutally killed just so I might learn moral relativism. BTW, Freedom was nearly banned for expressing the same thing. He said that if my mother was being raped or about to be killed, I’d wish I had a gun to kill her attacker. He was warned, STRONGLY, by one of the mods (I think it was Lynn) not to ever do that again. (It was more than a year ago and with the search engine limited to 90 days, you just may have to take my word for it. But it did happen in one of the Pit gun threads. Or ask Freedom yourself.) So if you do not retract what you said in your very next post, I will ask that YOU be banned.

Two can play at this game, you know.

Also, I’m pretty clever and I’m sure I’d find a way to stop someone without killing them. Killing someone when there are alternatives to killing is a sign of weakness and a lack of imagination.

Another one of your “favorite” posters (Ben) coined the term “fundie porn” to describe that common tactic used by Christian fundamentalists of warning atheists and other non-believers they’ll go to Hell if they don’t become Good Christians. It’s fantasizing not unlike the sexual fantasies that are the basis of pornography. And, as you yourself admit, it’s a sign of a sick mind to wish torment on another.

Maybe you again need to take a break from the SDMB for your own good?

353

This is no longeer humorous, a rant, or a debate. It’s a pissing contest, and it’s bevoming genuinely nasty. I see no constructive outcome.

I wonder if a Moderator would be willing to shut this thing down.

354

Utterly hilarious from one who categorically states that plants and stuff have no, none whatsoever, and it’s totally impossible because they know all there is to know, that these things have no consciousness, and don’t feel pain or any analogue thereof, or at least not anything like we feel- that when they hurt, it is not every bit as painful to them as our pain is to us.

From that on through, to this last, with it’s roaring, sweeping, categorical generalizations and goddish absolutes.

Utterly hilarious. So beautifully intrinsic.

I am in wonder.

:: drinking his isoflavone-rich soy milk, wanders off in search of the perfect hammmburger to go with the weed and mustard greeens he just picked out of the yard…bemused and in deep, no doubt consciousless, idiotic psuedo-thought. ::

I dis-remember who it was, maybe milosaurian? Said that vegetables and fruits dont’ absorb the pesticides- how then do they work? I would think any plant that was porous would to some degree absorb same- not arguing, but curious.

Also- even organics, which I buy whenever possible, they are processed with *icides for market, even though grown organically, and it’s legal- indeed, required in some locales. Not as strong as a field pesticide, but still there, a deletorious chemical. just fyi.

also- the rivers around here, and in any place where farming/ranching is big- the pesticides and fertilizers are the biggest source of riverwater ecosystem kills and general water pollution and hazardous-to-eat fish- it’s called non-source or non-point or something like that, pollution, and since fields, crop fields, occupy such big areas, the runoff is just so big, it outclasses anything else around it.

Not a condemnation, just more fyi.

viva meateaters, we have better farts! Viva vpeople! For some reason or other…:smiley: oh yeah, because they smell better, I think…:wink:

355

Great, another goofball who thinks it’s possible for plants to have feelings. Not without a nervous sytem, buddy.

356

Of course- how downright silly of me.

A nervous system!

The one and only good/bad sensing organ in the whole universe, let alone world.

And it has to be exactly like ours, otherwise it
a. doesn’t exist
b. doesn’t work
c. is just…well, it’s just so impossible, after all.

The one and only nervous system, wherein certain chemical transactions indicate certain conditions, which are evaluated, processed, by the organism for their desirability or lack thereof- pain/pleasure, desire/repulsion, ooh, this’ll help me grow/oooh, stay away from that, it is not as good as this.

Completely different from, say, a seed sprouting when it’s conditions are right, or when it senses they are right because moisture has made it through the outer coat, setting off certain chemical reactions that in turn set off chemical transactions that are clearly not, however mechanically, equated with oooh, this’ll help me grow, on up to the big person plant, which follows the sun, clearly by a non-existant sensing/processing/motility network.

Or a venus flytrap, clearly not sensing the fly, and subsequently, again, however mechanically, initiating the process to close up on said fly.

Do you think your chemical transactions and the subsequent actions/feelings/whatever are any less mechanical?

Do you thin the way you feel is ‘determined’ by you? When you are injured, is it some kind of choice, or art, by which you feel pain, or a de-facto evolved system? Which you, consciously, and in your what, 20 to 40 years on the planet as opposed to millions of evolution, control?

You absolutely control your nervous system, eh? And thereby, know absolutely all there is to know about sensing networks, and have deemed the by-god nervous system to be the one, the only, the living end of biological sensign networks.

Of course.

I will immediately have myself flogged. It’s ok though- I know every nueron in my nervous system, and through my art, will control same, along with their transactional vehicles, I’m sure you know all the names of them, and thereby feel no pain.

I deeply apologize. I will henceforth pray to you, daily.

357

, godjab.

358

It’s not my fault my posts have become invisible, dammit. :smiley:

359

I liked your posts, Spiritus. I thought you brought up some very good points. And yeah, I noticed how your excellent points were conviently ignored.

This thread seems to have crashed and burned Big Time, so maybe it’s too late to get it back to the previous discussion. But I still am dying to hear why vegetarians are so “dangerous”, since all of us have “loopy” ideas. And I must say, I was utterly flabbergasted that jab would actually declare this:

Oh yeah. Just by declaring it, it must be so. That’s all the evidence I need!

Oh, by the way, jab - I don’t have any stupid beliefs either. So we have nothing to discuss, do we? We both are perfect, without ANY flaws or inconsistencies in our belief systems. We just declared it, so it must be so!

Come on. :rolleyes:

This whole “stupid beliefs” thing is so utterly subjective. Just because jab or Scylla thinks a belief if mine, or anyone else’s is “stupid”, doesn’t make it so. Doesn’t make us dangerous, doesn’t make them right, doesn’t make us obliged to take them seriously. I see no reason to take someone seriously who REALLY tries to declare that people who don’t eat something are “dangerous” (no matter WHAT their reasons are for not eating something.) I don’t care if their reasons are because their parrot told them not to eat meat, or they just find meat “icky”, or because they think it’s wrong to eat animals if they don’t have to - whatever. No matter what the reason, it’s no one else’s business, as long as they aren’t out there preaching that everyone else must abstain from meat as well.

And of course, I am 100% right about everything I’ve declared on this thread, or on this board. Because, as I’ve just told you all, I don’t have any stupid beliefs. :smiley:

360

Not accepted. You attempted to attribute to me opinions I clearly do not hold, that even a cursory reading (let alone a careful one) of this thread would make evident, and you did so with a specific purpose in mind–to discredit me. Hell, in the newspaper biz, that’ll get someone a libel charge. If you “sometimes falsely attribute things said by one person to another,” maybe you need to read twice and post once, huh?

Proving yet again he simply doesn’t read the posts . . . my opposition to the death penalty is not based on the method used or how much suffering it causes. But I guess you just are falsely attributing yet another position to me on accident, huh?

I never said any such thing, and that $50 reward I mentioned earlier in the thread now shifts to you if you can find someplace where I did. I’m serious–find a post by me that contains something even close to what you say above, and I will send a cashier’s check for $50 to you or the charity of your choice. Put up or shut up.

Actually, I said nearly exactly that. But you don’t read the posts before responding.

Hence, it is fundamentally stupid, not to mention arrogant after attempting to lambast me for not being interested in changing my beliefs.

Go for it. Let’s both take it to the mods and see what the outcome is. You first.

You? You can’t even read. That’s not very clever.

Not killing someone when there are no alternatives is a sign of idiocy and arrogance.