Dr. Lao:
And Cows return most of those calories to the earth in enhanced fertilizer form through manure.
Based on this:
I gotta ask:
Does this mean you have a slightly different stance if the chicken involved isn’t engaged in intercourse when the choice of killing a chicken or cutting down an oak tree arises? And do you kill the rooster as well?
:d&r:
Nope, not even that will work, Scylla m’man. Living things are dying in and on our bodies even now . . .
We’re not “designed” to drink cow’s milk (let alone cheese or yoghurt), to eat cooked or baked food, or to put extra salt on anything, yet somehow I choose to do all of those things from time to time. And if I choose to do any of them, or choose not to eat meat for that matter, the only people who stand a chance of stopping me in a civilized society are my wife and my doctor. You don’t even come close, so get your nose out of my dietary business.
That’s so silly it’s almost funny.
So? Hospitals are anti-evolutionary.
You make this sound like breeding roses. I thought that we were talking about human beings, you know, people capable of making choices for themselves no matter what the hell you might think?
Man, I don’t care how many holier-than-thou vegetarians you’ve met, that whole post was just stupid.
I remember the simpsons episode where its all about lisa being a vegitarian…hehe…good ole simpsons
If someone choses to not eat meat, then thats their choice. If they also chose to be blatantly obvious and constantly remind people that “I am a Vegan” “no I dont eat meat Im a vegitarian” “how can YOU eat MEAT?” THEN theres a problem.
I like meat. If I see someone who doesnt eat meat, then im good with it - I dont rub anything into their faces. I just ask that vegans do the same.
I can’t be perfect, so I better stop trying?
Look, I know I am not changing the world. I have not made it a better place by not eating meat. But I have made A PERSONAL DECISION about my diet and my life. So please forgive me if I am offended by you calling me a person who is cursed with “flakiness, self-importance, and unfounded holier than thou pomposity.”
And what the fuck do you have against me?
To increase meat yields, many beef cattle are fed animal feed made from grains (mostly corn). Other animals, like pigs and chickens, are fed almost exclusively on feed.
No, they use most of those calories for moving around, keeping warm, and being cows. But I wasn’t just talking about cows. The 10% rule works for most animals. Animals only return about 10% of what they eat into consumeable biomass. Why do you think in natural food chains there are so many more herbivores than carnivores? The amount of energy available for top carinvores is fixed by what the herbivores ate at the bottom. The available amount is reduced by ninety percent for each step in the chain. So as you go higher in the chain, more and more plants are needed to support you.
This is why DDT was so deterimental to high end bird predators. Everytime a bird ate a fish they were contaminated with all the DDT contained within all the plants that fish consumed in its lifetime. None of the herbivores were affected since they didn’t eat enough plants for the levels of DDT to get too high. The carnivores, however, were affectively eating ten times as many plants which allowed the DDT to build to toxic levels.
I’ve always been fond of vegetarianism discussions, because of the combination of deep profundity and steadfastly reasonable and non-shrill opinions that characterize both sides.
No, really.
Stop looking at me like that.
Scylla made a good point about the holier than thou attitude that is ever so common with vegans.
I have gotten a lecture from a vegan as I was eating an extremely succulent bit of barbequed brisket. He went off on me about how I was oppressing people by eating meat, and that I was supporting animals being grown in unsanitary conditions, not to mention all those poor chickens who are not free range.
I went to an all vegetarian Thanksgiving dinner. They were extremely unpleasant to the omnivores that were waxing nostalgic over past family turkey dinners. Then, as they plied us with cooked plants, they were telling us how lucky we were to be eating natural foods. I felt like I was eating side dishes. Still, unlike them I was polite because I was a guest.
Now, not all vegans have this attitude, but most that I have met are holier than thou. Just because you don’t eat animals does not make your emaciated ass superior.
Jesus Christ people, learn the fucking difference between vagan and vegetarian, and then take the time to use those two neurons needed to make a distinction.
I’m bloody sick of people who can’t tell the difference. I’m sick of getting shafted into eating vegan meals on airplanes, in cafeterias, and at restaurants because some idiot doesn’t realize that I eat and enjoy milk, cheese, and eggs.
My younger brother was once physically forced to eat chicken soup as a child, because some idiot at the day-care thought they knew what he should be eating better than he did. But it’s not like the omnivores are ever obnoxious and overbearing.
Emaciated ass my ass. I’m 180+ pounds, and could break my 100 pound meat-gobbling friends like twigs.
(And I’m not exagerating about 100 pounds; I have no idea what makes em so freaky thin, but it sure ain’t diet)
Scylla, you have got to be kidding. Please tell us that this is all some sort of practical joke. Please. I really thought you were smarter than this.
Come on. Look on this board. Search through it, put in “vegetarian”, “vegan” as keywords, and tell us what you find. You will find A LOT of threads started by omnivores who are usually bitching about vegetarians. “Why do they do this?” or “Are Vegetarians hypocrites?” and on and on. Usually these threads are full of the same old bullshit. “People are supposed to eat meat!” “Plants have feelings too!” (Oh please, let’s put this one to rest) and “Vegetarians are hypocrites because…” And on and frickin’ on. It seems like some people just cannot stop fretting about what us good ol’ vegetarians are up to.
And how many threads started by vegetarians, with the sole purpose of ragging on omnivores? So far, I’ve only seen one. And it’s a pretty lame thread at that, by what (I assume) is a “newbie” vegan. And yeah, there was the “gentle rant” I wrote in the Pit a while back, but it was just a plea for all of you to leave us veggies alone. So - please. Show us. HOW many veggies and vegans have come on this board and started a thread with the express purpose of attacking or judging omnivores? Please. Give me the links. I’ll give you the links to all the ones the omnivores started, and we’ll compare notes.
And also - we are usually treated to everyone’s personal antecdotes of meeting an “obnoxious” veggie on these kind of threads. Sure, I know they’re out there. Sure, I believe you. A few veggies are pains in the ass. But, do you want me to start a thread where all us veggies tell you all our antecdotes about the assinine crap we’ve been subjected to because of our vegetarianism? Because I can almost frickin’ guarantee you, our list of tales will be longer than yours. You see, there are a whole lot more omnivores out there than vegetarians, and a certain percentage of these omnivores are assholes. So yeah, we usually get more than our share of crap. So would you just give it a frickin’ rest already?
Besides - it’s none of your damned business what we eat. Shit - take it up with the next crystal-hugging vegan who accosts you and tells you how “evil” you are. They started it, they deserve your ire. But don’t insult the many decent vegetarians on this board who just want to eat whatever the HELL WE WANT in PEACE
Myrr21: You have stopped eating fish, right? 
I’ve looked through a bunch of these veggie threads, and it seems like the carnivores are a lot more vociferate about how veggies are in their face than the other way around.
I was a vege for 10 years. During that time, I once asked a Tibetan reincarnate lama in Tibet why as a good buddhist they ate meat and wore animal skins. He replied “I would starve to death and freeze to death otherwise.” Okay, checkmate, I never once after that started off the fireworks with a carnivore. If someone got in my face first, then I gave as good as I got.
I married a meat eater and finally gave up after 2 years and started eating meat again. I still eat meat today. It was a big stressor in our marriage and I choose to try help our marriage by giving up vegetarianism. It was the most tangible way I could “prove” that I wanted things to work. It was not an easy way or an excuse for me to start eating meat again.
IMHO, carnivores are generally the BIGGEST assholes in this debate. What I eat is my own fucking business. If you invite me to dinner, and I give a qualified acceptance based on my dietary preferences, then you should be big enough to either withdraw that invitation or accomodate my need. It’s nothing personal on either side. It just is. Deal with it.
**
And the same goes for Gore and Nader voters.
[sub](Sorry. Couldn’t resist.)[/sub]
Scylla, don’t let their lower-lip-sucking get you down. On a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, you have very succinctly (and hilariously) pointed out the blatant illogic of vegetarianism.
To each their own? Absolutely! So long as nowhere, even in the furthest recesses of the back of your mind, are you deluding yourself that your eating habits make you more moral, kind or sophisticated. That would be a lie. They don’t.
We are incapbable of survival without causing the suffering of other living things. Self-loathing and/or delusion makes that no less true.
And not to turn this thread into a goddamned hippie love fest or anything, but I’d like to say that Dr Lao is my favorite poster on this board. First, he calmed my paranoid craziness and convinced me I wasn’t pregnant, and now he’s using brilliany logic to back up my rebuttal against the “plants have feelings!” theory.
Thank you.
Actually, the overall effet of being an omnivore sees to be an incredible ability to live on almost anything, not a condition of needing a bit of everything. In the “wild” (i.e. pre-agricultral societies) you find all sorts of diets: diets of all meat, diets of no meat, diets of various ratios of the two. We produce enzymes specially tailored to digest sugars found only in insects, but that dosen’t mean that not liking the taste of insects makes us an evolutionary dead end. As an adaptation, omnivorism is about expanding our options, not reducing them.
Ya know what?
I think I am one of the closest of the omnivores that follow more of a vegetarian (not vegan) diet…
With that said I must admit to a few things.
I can’t stand spagetti with a meat sauce, it must contain tomatoes and other veggies but never meat. If I have a steak (usually a high priced but high quality steak) I can’t eat it with carbs…a pretty salad with lot’s of crunchy veggies I will have with it.
I eat chicken about once a year and remember why I don’t like that shit they call chicken in the grocery store. I contemplate that the chicken farmer has fed it rubber and a slurry of Tammy Faye Baker’s leftover makeup.
I can see the side of many vegetarians and vegans. If they don’t prefer to eat meat, then so be it, rarely have I ever run across a militant veg-head so much as to start any arguements with one. I usually find them much like me, one who prefers pure foods and not adulterated rhino shit fashioned to taste like spring gooselings with a tasteless corn that isn’t fit for man nor beast. Most of them that I know enjoy the foods they eat for their own reasons much as I prefer to eat the foods I do.
BTW, I have many vegetarian recipes in my kitchen that are outstanding. Take my recipe for Oatmeal Pancakes. They are truly devine and since they use whole foods your stomach isn’t left feeling like you just ate 5 pounds of super glue and guzzled it with super carbonated root beer.
If it were my voice above all, it would be to push organic and whole foods rather than pig snot and chicken droppings that farmers are pushing… I am a militant omnivore looking for us to get back to basics, enjoy whatever fucking foods we so choose but without hormones, antibiotics, pesticides and whatever else chemicals that happen in all of our food production these days. I think our vegetarians and many of our omnivores would agree…get rid of the shit we put in our foods and look for health rather than the all might fucking dollar.
Oh and yes, get off the backs of veg-heads, they choose not to eat meat and I stand by them for my own reasons. But in addition, I do find most of them very interesting characters to engage in chat.
< done now, sorry, had to say a few extra things >
And thank you, ThisYearsGirl. Always glad to be of help.
It is relatively easy to stay calm here since I am pretty convinced that Scylla is joking (or is at least half joking). However, my argument is serious. I eat meat, but I think there are compelling environmental reasons for being a vegetarian. A vegetarian diet requires less land to be cultivated, less water, and less of everything else that goes with agriculture (fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides). As a result, it has less of an impact on the environment.
Hastur: Does this sound familiar?
Let me play Polycarp in this debate by apologizing to vegetarians and vegans everywhere on behalf of my over-excitable omnivorous brethern. I think it was something they ate.
I’m not too interested in the whole eat meat/don’t eat meat/nuh-uh/yeah-huh argument, but I did have a thought that crossed my mind in reading.
Vegetarianism/veganism is a luxury of the developed world. A starving family will eat what feeds them, plant or animal. If on the verge of starving to death, I doubt they would pass on slaughtering a chicken to nourish their bodies (unless there was a religious reason, such as the Hindu’s Sacred Cow…I wonder, is there a religion with a Sacred Chicken?).
When there is an overabundance of food, such as in our homelands, we have the luxury of picking and choosing the source of our dietary needs.
damn. Hastur, Scylla, and Milo all made very good points.
Scylla, you made tons of good points,a nd stated the obvious.
and, just for the rcord, everyone, I am a very hearty omnivore. I love raspberries, blueberries, lettuce, and all of that good stuff, but nothing makes me more hungry than grilling a medium-rare venison steak in a iron skillet with extra virgin olive oil. hmm-hmm-hmm.
and ALSO, if you don’t like the meat that comes from the grocery store, you can always hunt, that’s a way to get meat! but then again, I’ll be you’re anti-hunting because you don’t like the poor defenseless animals getting killed quickly that way either.