Veganinanitarianism

The BBQ Pit
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Long story short - although it’s been pointed out several times now, what some of you seem to be missing is that it is factory farming in particular that many vegetarians find unacceptable.

Scylla - you keep painting this idyllic picture of life in the countryside, with happy-go-lucky sheep and cows frollicking in the fields and having their lives ended in a sudden “efficient” manner. Well for the majority of meat husbandry this just ain’t so. Or, at least, it ain’t so in my country. I guess that I can’t really speak for yours, although pld certainly leads me to believe that the problem is international.

So vegetarians don’t want any part of that. They have no easy method of verifying the conditions that each animal they eat was reared under. So they wash their hands of the whole damn thing and declare that since they can, actually, lead a healthier lifestyle by not eating meat anyway, that’s what they’ll do.

This does not seem to me to be inconsistant with anything. They don’t like factory farming, so they refuse to participate in the industry that supports it.

Now from my point of view, I’ve considered going vegetarian in the last few years purely as a reaction to the food scares. Since in the UK we’ve been so hit by this, the news has been full of images of the way cows are reared. It’s simply disgusting. This puts me off meat - not as an ethical consideration, but as a health one. The thought of eating that disgusting beast just sickens me. Then when newspapers start to list the hormones that cattle are injected with and the crap that goes into their foodcakes (grass? do me a favour)… well… vegetarianism starts to look a whole lot more favourable.

As I say, there are perfectly valid reasons for wanting to be a vegetarian. Your willingness to blanket them all as “flakes” is just repugnant.

Although I will admit, you are funny.

pan

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PLD…

I guess, using that criteria, that I can still call myself an “omnivore”. I eat hot dogs at least once every two weeks.

ThisYearsGirl…

I take it that you would prefer the thread devolve into a series of petty flamewars? Forgive me for trying to introduce a little bit of levity to a thread…

Sheesh. Send in the clowns, indeed…

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You did read my next post, right? It was a joke. I’m sorry if it offended you.

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By the way, the last post was actually not sarcasism; I really am sorry you took my joke so seriously.

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kabbes wrote:

So have you (or pld for that matter) actually been to one of these alleged “factory farms,” or are you simply relying on information received from advocates of the vegetarian lifestyle?

I grew up on a farm where we raised beef cattle (in Georgia), and I can attest that the cows did indeed live idyllic lives, right up until the point they were taken to market. Now, once sent off to market, it wouldn’t surprise me if they spent a small part of their lives in fattening pens prior to slaughter. The problem is that vegitarian propagandists take pictures of a fattening pen and then try to convince everyone (apparently with at least partial success, judging by the posts to this thread) that beef cattle spend their entire lives in such pens. That “just ain’t so.”

The typical beef cow spends 99.99% of its life grazing peacefully in a pasture, or lying around chewing its cud.

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sarcasism??
You been listening to too much Bush…

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I alos think we’re seeing a lot of hyperbole concerning the raising of beef. Maybe they do it all wrong in England, but what else is new?

As a legitimate cowboy (big hat, no cattle) I can tell you that most beeves lead pretty good lives.

It’s mostly dairy farms here. A lot of male calves get sold off to ranches, but they do raise some beef and veal.

Most dairy farms (at least in PA which I think is the largest producer) or smallish family affairs. They belong to cooperatives, and ship the milk for processing daily. Dairy cows lead the life of Riley.

I’ve been in several veal houses, and contrary to what you heard, they are universally clean almost to the point of sterility. I personally wouldn’t mind spending a week living the life of a veal calf. They are well-cared for and not in the least unhappy.

Around here and out west most beef cows graze freely in the summer over rocky pasture land not fit for cultivation. During winters they are supplemented with haylage or round bales.

Roaming freely in large pastures is the most economical way to raise beef, by far. Then, you fatten them up and take them to market.

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Scylla wrote:

Which is one reason the threads questioning the vegetarian lifestyle are important. (You listening, yosemitebabe? :wink: )

I have no problem with people eating whatever the hell they want to eat. I do have a problem with people who use lies and distortions to justify their lifestyle choices.

I get very tired of hearing vegetarians rail against the evils of the beef industry, when they don’t know a damn thing about it except what they read in some vegan tract. I try to be patient, knowing that most of them aren’t intentionally spreading falsehoods, but (having never actually visited a cattle farm) are only perpetuating hearsay.

And if vegans/vegetarians/whatever insist on trafficking in untruths, then as a Doper sworn to combat ignorance I am offended.

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So wait a minute, which vegan tracts would those be – the Washington Post, or 20/20, or 48 Hours? I forgot which one is the “vegetarian propagandist.” You know, what with all those ads from the Beef Council and McDonald’s and Perdue’s Chicken and KFC, it’s hard to keep track.

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PLD:

20/20 and 48 hours aren’t news. It’s infotainment. What’s the difference? Well Mick Foley, a professional wrestler tells this story in his book Foley is Good.

20/20 plans a segment on kids and backyard wrestling and they want to interview Mick. Mick agrees, but is a little worried about being ambushed so he independantly videotapes the interview.

During the segment they show Mick a film of some kids engaged in light roughhousing in a homemade backyard wrestling ring. A parent supervises. They ask Mick what he thinks of this.

“That’s great!” he says. “It looks like good fun.”

Then they show Mick another tape. In this one, unsupervised kids are breaking flourescent glass tubes over each other’s heads. They are punching each other for real. There is blood. There are kids jumping out of trees onto each other.

They asks Mick what he thinks about this.

Very carefully Mick goes into long detail about how wrong and stupid that that is, and how it can lead to injure and death, and certainly won’t impress anyone in the Wrestling business. “I wouldn’t even think about getting involved in something like that. Don’t try it.” He says.

So they air the segment. Guess what happens?

They show the bloody horrible film of kids hurting each other. Than they cut to the plastic talking head asking what Mick thinks of it.

“That’s great! It looks like fun.”

They deliberately misedited the film to make him say the opposite of what he actually said.

“A-ha!” Mick thinks. “I got 'em” He shows his tape of what actually happened and then the 20/20 tape to his lawyers.

Mick is surprised that they are unimpressed.

“It’s a standard practice.” They say. “They’re allowed. There’s absolutely nothing you can do about it.”

Mick did get his original tape shown on a wrestling show, so that fans would know what his true stance was.

You will also recall that these same shows set trucks on fire with deliberately engineered pyrotechnics to “prove” that they are unsafe.
Seeing something on 20/20 or 48 hours is hardly a credible source. Fundie creationists have more integrity. Pokemon is a more realistic depiction of life.

Talking about these shows is like citing the National Enquirer.

So, in all fairness PLD, journalistic integrity ain’t what it used to be.

I would like to see one realiable source on the widespread abuse of food-quality farm animals, or that proves the danger of hormone/supplement injection.
I’d trust the tracts before 20/20.

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I didn’t say they were. Did I? (checks previous post to save himself embarrassment.) Nope, I sure didn’t. I did ask which ones were the vegan tracts and which ones were the vegetarian propagandists. I notice you deftly left out the Post, though. You know, that paper that publishes right in Perdue’s neck of the woods?

All three have done major segments in the past six months on unsafe, unsanitary, and inhumane practices in the slaughterhouse industry. spoke seems to think everyone is getting their information from “vegan tracts” and “vegetarian propagandists,” and I asked which ones those were. I’d still like an answer. If you don’t have one, why did you respond?

Oooh, how about that cattle farmer who wrote that book?

Wait, wait, wait . . . I want to be absolutely certain I have this straight . . . you’re going to impeach my sources with the writings of a professional wrestler. Egads. Next!

Actually, no, I don’t recall either 20/20 or 48 Hours doing any such thing, and neither do you, but go ahead and libel them to your heart’s content. Hey, did the Post do that, too?

Well, nowhere near as credible as, say, professional wrestlers.

I kinda sorta work in the media field, so you’ll please refrain from lecturing me. Although I can hardly resist the ironic observation that Milossarian is a journalist, so maybe you’re right after all.

The Washington Post? Oh, wait, I know – how about the Washinton Post?
I’d trust the tracts before 20/20.

**
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Bullshit. Either Mick is misrepresenting what happenend or he’s got potted plants for lawyers. That’s called false-light defamation, and it is quite actionable. Even for a public figure, it would be relatively easy to win if the facts were has he described them.

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Fair’s fair, pldennison. I asked my question first. Please answer it:

Have you ever actually visited one of these so-called “factory farms?” If so, do tell. Where is it? Can you give me an address or a physical location, so I can visit it myself?

None of the dozens of beef farms I have either lived on or visited utilized the types of practices you describe. If you find one that does, I’d sure like to drop by and see what the heck is going on.

To answer your question, hmmmm, I guess I’d call 20/20 more of a (video) tract. It starts with a conclusion and then edits a story to match it. Very tract-like.

You disagree? Then please point me to a “factory farm,” so that we can settle the matter.

(By the way, can you at least point us to a transcript or an article, rather than making vague references to TV “News” Magazines? Your Argument from Authority might carry more weight if we could all see what the alleged authority said. If you can’t do that, then I hereby rebut your argument with a vague cite to the New York Times.)

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Oh, Jesus Christ with a 9-iron.

Here are the abstracts, you can buy the articles yourself if you’d like.

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Am I somehow misspelling the word s-l-a-u-g-h-t-e-r-h-o-u-s-e or something?

“Factory farming,” spoke, refers to the whole process, from the beef feed lots to the overstuffed poultry cages (the Post did a series on those as well) to the slaughterhouses. In reference to beef, my problems occur with the slaughtering process itself. In reference to poultry, my problems occur with the conditions under which the bulk of the chickens raised in this country are kept.

Thanks for the link, manny.

So, spoke, you’re on record as considering 20/20 to be a “vegan tract”? I want to make sure I can quote you accurately on that in the future.

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Well, you can go by the book if you like, and the WWF made a pretty big deal about it showing both tapes on Raw. Mick also appeared on several talk shows discussing this. His book Foley is Good is subtitled Or Real Life is Faker than Wrestling. It’s about 300 pages, and not ghostwritten. He did it and the research himself, and it’s rather carefully footnoted. Being a fan of wrestling, I’ve seen both tapes myself and they exist as stated.

Mick is by the way a two-time #1 bestselling author, a devoted family man, startlingly intelligent, and a hell of a nice guy.

Before you cry bullshit it might be nice if you had the barest glimmer of what you are talking about.

I will be glad to provide quotes if you like.

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Vegans: It’s What’s For Dinner

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Manhattan/PLD:

The Washington Post? Why don’t you just quote Jack Chick?
Umm, yeah, Ok. That’s pretty good source. Yes, I see you noticed that I left them out of my diatribe.

I didn’t feel like paying to see the articles, but I’ll be happy to accept your summary, and respond based on the one paragraph or so available.

Dying is rarely fun for those doing it. I mentioned I’ve seen chicken heads still blinking.

A lot of what you see in a beef slaughterhouse is nervous muscle action. Surely a quantity survive long into the process and die painful deaths.

Let me say first that everything possible within reason should be done to minimize the suffering.

That said, we are talking about the mass slaughter of animals. It ain’t gonna be pretty, no matter how we do it. Suffering is going to occur.

Thinking realistically, even the most botched job at a slaughterhouse is going to entail less pain and suffering than the average natural death awaiting a wild animal. There’s also a very good chance that as human beings we will suffer far longer and far worse when we meet our ultimate demise.

So, It’s not exactly news to my ears that a slaughterhouse is unpleasant.

None of the chickenhouses I’ve seen were pleasant. Pretty dirty, small cages stacked ten high, the chickens shit on each other. They throw feed on the top at it dribbles down to the bottom.

As I’ve said though, I don’t have an awful lot of respect or sympathy for chickens. They probably don’t have enough brain to know they’re suffering, and a chicken’s life is miserable no matter how you cut it. I don’t think they do much better out of the cages. They have the minimum brainpower necessary to breathe, eat and drink.

As an aside, when we first moved here, before we had children we were pretty involved with horses. We’d attend auctions, outbid the slaughter buyers, and take in broken down and neglected horses.

We’d restore them to health, do some training and sell them (primarily to 12 year old girls who wanted to get into riding.) We donated a couple of the sadder cases to a Hippotherapy charity.

The odd thing I noticed is this. Between 1993 and 1997, you could find a lot of horribly neglected horses at auction. Emaciated, running sores, overgrown rotting hooves, really sad to see.

Around 1997 you started seeing less and less of this. Horses were selling for more, and they were generally in better shape.

The reason?

Horse meat was gaining popularity in Europe, particularly France. The broken down horses suddenly had value, and they were treated better.

With the onset of mad-cow disease horse flesh is at a premium.

You see very few badly neglected horses at auction. Most are well-fed.

While unhappy to see riding horses sold for slaughter, and very ambivalent about their rising popularity as a human food item, the simple fact is that human consumption of horses has resulted in their better treatment.

They are in better shape, well-fed, and their is a lot less suffering then when they were typically rendered for byproducts or turned into dog food.

While there certainly is unnecessary suffering, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the raising and slaughtering of beef cows is typically cruel.

It’s probably fair to say they have it a lot better, and meet a kinder end then nature would provide, and until recently almost always met a much better end then the much more esteemed and loved horse.

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Scylla: *Let me say first that everything possible within reason should be done to minimize the suffering. *

Well, reducing the number of animals slaughtered by reducing consumption of meat helps minimize the suffering too, right? Wouldn’t you say that it’s better to have fewer cows, chickens, etc., dying painfully than to have more of them dying painfully? Nobody here is suggesting that slaughtering them or eating them should be forbidden to those who like it, but if vegetarians feel strongly about abstaining from that traffic and are willing to give up meat on account of it, why brand that “moral imperative” as “bullshit”?

I agree that wide-eyed innocents going around saying “everybody should just stop all the killing of our fellow creatures now, then life will be peaceful and harmonious and joyful for all!” are deluded and annoying. But rational people can remain quite aware that their own existence will necessarily involve suffering and death for some other creatures, and still make principled decisions about trying to minimize certain kinds and quantities of that suffering and death. Why is this not a good and moral thing? It may not be the right path for everybody, and certainly nobody should go around gratuitously bragging or lecturing about it any more than they should brag or lecture about any of their other moral principles. But why respond with such outrage?

*And frankly I’m surprised at myself and a little puzzled at myself for having defended the whole thing so vociferously.

All things considered, I think I’ve been treated a lot nicer than I merit, here. *

I agree. I’m as baffled as you are as to why somebody generally reasonable would have started this whole mess in the first place. Merely having been annoyed a dozen times or so in the course of your life by vegetarian/vegan assholes doesn’t seem important enough to be a sufficient cause for such flamethrowing. Maybe you were drunk? :wink: Or maybe—I try to stay away from “keyboard psychoanalysis” of strangers in cyberspace, but just this once—maybe you are at bottom not wholly comfortable with the ethical implications of meat-eating? What with buying up the old horses and all, you seem like a strongly moral person in your own way, and perhaps you aren’t quite at ease with the notion that vegetarianism/veganism might be a rational and honorable ethical choice that you’re personally not willing to make. Mind you, I don’t feel that non-vegetarianism is intrinsically immoral—I’m not a vegetarian myself—but I’m willing to accept the possibility that maybe some vegetarians are closer than I am to an ethical code that really does humanely minimize the inevitable suffering and predation of life. I’m not proud of coming in second (or third, or three-billionth) in any aspect of the do-the-right-thing race, but I realize that it’s gonna happen sometimes and I just have to accept it. Maybe you are still working on that part?

(Or maybe, of course, that’s not it at all.)

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I dunno, Miss Henny Penny has a pretty good life. She’s my son’s godmother’s pet chicken. She showed up in their yard one day seriously injured (probably by a cat or a dog) and they nursed her back to health. She has the run of the yard (a big one) and the house as well. She loves to come sit in your lap. She makes little happy sounds when you pet her. She sleeps in a little wooden house that they built for her and lays very yummy eggs. She got along famously with Chloe, the cat, during Chloe’s lifetime. They were pals.