Veganism

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

*Originally posted by ElJeffe *
**DanielWithrow:
Also, from what I’ve read, the type of organic farming that vegan-types tend to promote result in huge amounts of forestation being lost, especially as practiced in third-world nations. Modern, non-organic methods are much more compact and efficient. When you’re clearing out forests to make way for your green-beans, the death toll of unsuspecting woodland creatures continues to rise.
Jeff **

You’re probably talking about soil erosion, and I don’t think this is an accurate look at it.

There are a couple of different kinds of agriculture that environmental folks like to bicker about. There’s no-till agriculture, which results in very little soil erosion. However, tilling (plowing) is a great way to destroy weeds, and if you don’t till, you usually have to use lots of herbicides, which can result in pollution.

Organic or semiorganic growing, OTOH, doesn’t use any herbicides (or uses very few herbicides); generally, you have to till the soil to kill weeds between each crop, and this results in soil loss.

There are techniques that organic growers use to minimize soil loss. Contour tilling has all crop rows run perpendicular to the slope of a piece of land, almost like lines on a contour map. You can put windbreaks (rows of trees) between small fields, minimizing wind erosion and allowing the trees to capture soil from water runoff. You can minimally till, allowing some weeds to grow alongside the crop species, so that there’s none of the bare ground that is so prone to erosion. And, of course, you can add organic matter like manure or compost to the field to replace some of the eroded nutrients.

Most nonorganic agriculture, IIRC, is till-based; large-scale agriculture is far worse in terms of erosion than small-scale agriculture (the fields tend to be bigger, and details like contour farming are generally ignored, and farmers rely on chemical fertilizers rather than manure etc. to replace lost nutrients). One of the worries in the organic community is that as organic becomes more mainstream, it’ll become large-scale, and it’ll start suffering from many of the problems associated with large-scale agriculture, including erosion issues.

---

If you’re not talking about erosion, then I’m not familiar with the issue; could you link to something detailing it?

Daniel

[TVAA]

Developing infants need significant amounts of protein and fatty acids for brain development. One of the arguments in favor of the “aquatic ape” evolutionary hypothesis is that human brain development could only begin in earnest when we began eating seafood in large quantities.

[John_Mace]

TVAA: I think that in many “primitive” societies, breast feeding is common throughout the entire infant period. Does this take care of the “protein/fatty acid” issue? BTW, I’m not remotely a vegan. Just curious about your post.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Interesting theory, TVAA, I’d never heard we’re descended from sea monkeys, but stranger things have happened ;). However, if you’re suggesting that infants need animal products in their diet, The American Dietetic Association disagrees:

Well-planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy and lactation. Appropriately planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children, and adolescents and promote normal growth (37). Dietary deficiencies are most likely to be observed in populations with very restrictive diets. All vegan children should have a reliable source of vitamin B-12 and, if sun exposure is limited, vitamin D supplements or fortified foods should be used. Foods rich in calcium, iron, and zinc should be emphasized. Frequent meals and snacks and the use of some refined foods and foods higher in fat can help vegetarian children meet energy needs. Guidelines for iron and vitamin D supplements and for the introduction of solid foods are the same for vegetarian and nonvegetarian infants. When it is time for protein-rich foods to be introduced, vegetarian infants can have pureed tofu, cottage cheese, and legumes (pureed and strained). Breast-fed vegan infants should receive a source of vitamin B-12 if the mother’s diet is not supplemented and a source of vitamin D if sun exposure is inadequate. [emphasis added]

The same position paper, incidentally, contains information that Scylla may be interested in:

Vegetarian diets can also meet the needs of competitive athletes. Protein needs may be elevated because training increases amino acid metabolism, but vegetarian diets that meet energy needs and include good sources of protein (eg, soyfoods, legumes) can provide adequate protein without use of special foods or supplements.

Daniel

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

John Mace raises a good point, and one that’s been mentioned in other recent threads: vegan infants almost always (except in the cases of infants with insane parents) drink human breast milk.

Daniel

[TVAA]

If vegans are willing to breastfeed their children until about the age of two or three, there’s no problem. The mother could ingest enough nutrients by eating only plant materials.

The point is that this is extremely hard without living in an agricultural society where almost any food is available year-round. It would be virtually impossible to have done it when we were evolving – meat was a key factor in the development of the human race.

None of this really has much to do with the argument, excepting that demonizing meat-eating isn’t really consistent with a sense of our evolutionary history (not that anyone was really demonizing it).

(Sea monkeys… [chuckle] Good one, Daniel!)

[John_Mace]

TVAA:

You point about the evolutionary history or meat eating is certainly hard to dispute. However, it’s not really a justification for its continuation. Canabalism was almost certainlly a part of our evolutionary history as well, but our society has evolved to where that is no longer acceptable. I’m sure vegans are thinking along those lines.

Personally, I don’t feel the need to justify meat eating any more than I need to justify breathing. All animal life kills some form of life in order to live. Plants/animals, I don’t really see the need to make a distinction.

Do vegans not take antibiotics? Don’t those kill some kind of animal?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Antibiotics kill monera, not animals. I’ve never met a vegan who had a problem with them, although I’ve wondered what Jainists and other fruitarians think about them.

And I think most militant vegans only object to meat-eating when it’s a matter of convenience or aesthetics: I think most militant vegans do not begrudge the folks in hunter-gatherer societies their meat, but rather focus on folks in the developed world for whom meat is not a necessity but rather a luxury.

Daniel

[TVAA]

Heck, eating anything results in the death of bacteria. Countless bacteria die in our digestive system every day. It’s not really avoidable (and is actually how some animals get their supplies of B12).

[Exgineer]

Tried to post this earlier…

Ah, okay. I have a passing familiarity with the dairy industry, but I just didn’t see any direct connection between milk and the eventual fate of male calves. If you go cradle-to-grave on virtually any food production process something furry dies along the way. Especially the rabbits and chipmunks in my vegetable garden.

For what it’s worth, the dairy farms around here don’t seem to trat the cows in any cruel or unnatural way. The big dumb beasts just stand around in the fields all day, and I’m willing to bet that’s pretty much what they want to do. It’s not like they’d be riding bicycles or playing softball if given the opportunity.

Occasionally I have to point out to people that “natural environment” is a nonsensical concept when applied to a Gurnsey.

Thanks for the explanation.

[BrotherCadfael]

Dairy farmers actually go out of their way to treat the cows well. It’s quite simple, really: Stressed cows give less milk. Less milk=less money, hence, treat your cows well or go out of business.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Occasionally I have to point out to people that “natural environment” is a nonsensical concept when applied to a Gurnsey.

Absolutely – but “natural” should be a value-neutral word anyway, neither good nor bad, and has no place in moral discussions IMO.

Guernseys may not have a “natural” state, but they do have desires: they desire to be around other cows; to establish and exist within a herd’s hierarchy; to be able to eat clean, fresh grass; to breathe fresh air; to drink clean, fresh water; to raise their young; to avoid pain; and probably desires I’m not thinking of. I think a vegan will object to a particular dairy to the extent that they thwart the desires of the cattle there.

Daniel

[John_Mace]

Dan: “I think most militant vegans do not begrudge the folks in hunter-gatherer societies their meat”

Not to pick on you, as you are speaking for other people, but I think this attitude is pretty silly. Hunter-gatherers can kill animals in pretty brutal ways. Any “vegan” who holds those views is just a smarmy “holier than thou” type in my mind. Correct me if I’m missing something.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Dammit, I lost a long post detailing for Cadfael the ways in which dairy farmers could maximize their profits by causing their cattle to suffer. Look at constant pregnancies, separation of calf from mother at birth, milking machines that bruise and internally injure cows, use of growth hormones that lead to udder infections and painfully swollen udders (and also promote more milk production), and so forth. Stupid hamsters eating my post!

John, I think there are two things to look at with hunter-gatherer societies:

1. For almost all hunter-gatherers, meat is not a luxury; it’s a nutritional necessity. This is a strong argument against veganism within these societies.
2. Although hunters may kill animals brutally, generally these animals lead lives in which they’re able to pursue their desires, unlike animals on an industrial farm. Some AR folk would argue that the moment of death is less important than the lifetime of thwarted desires.

Daniel

[DrDeth]

Well, yes, Daniel, but that site has more caveats than most. He notes that it is important to supplement with B12. Period. No “vegan” sources are good. Also, one must carefully watch their diet to make sure they get anough Vit A, D & calcium, and even iron- all of wehich have slow effects, and can cause long term growth & developement problems if there is a small but significant deficiency. That is- the kids won’t look or act sick during long term low level deficiencys, but those may effect them all their life.

To make my self more clear= the words “Well planned” are not emphasized enough, and that quote may lead one to conclusions other than what the author meant. It woudl be better to say "It is possible although difficult to provide a vegan diet for children, and severe nutritional deficiences & health problems may occur if the diet is not carefully watched.’ Having raised some kids in my life (“instant family”), I can say that it is hard enough to get kids to eat right without them cutting their dietary range in half.

I strongly recommend that no child be put on or allowed a “vegan” diet. If you must-have them use the much easier Ovo-lacto veg diet until they are old enough to make their own moral choices. B12, Calcium, Iron, Vitamins A & D are all easy to get plenty of if you include dairy & eggs. I am very disapointed that the ADA did not make themself more clear on the dangers. Sure, they say it is hard to get enough of such&such nutrient on a vegan diet, but they do not emphasize the warning signs or long term dangers enough. If they had put in all caps, and flashing red letters the warning “YOU CHILD MAKE GET RICKETS, ANEMIA, AND SUFFER LONG TERM GROWTH & DEVELOPEMENT DISORDERS IF FED A VEGAN DIET WITHOUT EXTREME CARE” I might have let them slip- however, I will write them, and let them know of their error.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

*Originally posted by DrDeth *
** I might have let them slip- however, I will write them, and let them know of their error. **

Their “error”? What are your dietitian credentials, that you’re so quick to “correct” them? This looks a wee bit arrogant to me, unless you’re an authority in the field more respected than the ADA is.

FYI, there are plenty of vegan B12 supplements on the market, and a moderate vegan diet rich in vegetables, whole grains, fruits, and legumes can provide all the nutrition that a person (including a post-breastfeeding infant person) needs. If you’ve got evidence to the contrary, both I and the ADA would like to see it. Even evidence that it’s difficult to provide a vegan diet to infants will be accepted.

Daniel

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by DanielWithrow *
**
while few voles would be caught in the direct blast, more voles would be killed by the shockwave, and at any rate this farmer found it immensely satisfying to blow up these varmints who would eat the roots of his saplings and destroy whole sections of his orchard.
**

I don’t blame him. I have a cute little bunny I named Harvey who lives somwhere behind my house. Occasionally I see him in the evening hopping around the backyard. I just spent most of last weekend tilling some soil and planting various veggies. I even planted a row of cabbages in case Harvey felt the need to come mess up my garden. If I catch that little bastard eating anything but the cabbages I’m afraid he’s just going to have to go. I can’t do anything about the deer though. <sigh>

Marc

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

I have no idea if it works, but I’ve heard planting squash around your garden’s borders will keep away deer: they’re very skeevy about stepping somewhere they can’t see, and squash leaves cover the ground completely. But other than that trick, the only thing I’ve eaver heard of working against deer is a very very high fence.

On the bright side, a fence would keep Harvey out as well.

(And I don’t blame the apple-farmer either: rather, I hold it up as an example why vegans might not be satisfied even with an organic fruitarian diet).

Daniel

[DrDeth]

The evidence?- their own site & that article that you linked me to. Didin’t you read my post? The error is not in their facts- the facts are there and correct. But that article- taken out of the context of their entire website and their many other great articles on child nutrition- is not adequate. Sure, the article warns you it is hard to get enough of several nutrients. But you need to read other articles on their website to know the difficult to detect and “often-too-late-to correct-by-the-time-it-is-detected” signs of such deficiencies, and the very serious long term health & developement problems that such deficiencies can cause. I have no objections to their website taken as a whole. But read out of context- and without a good background in specialized dietary knowledge- that single article does not make the caveats strong enough. They seem to assume you’ll read the entire website. But I’ll bet a nickle that a copy of that one artcle is pinned up in some half-dozen vegetarian food coops. You took it out of context- others will also.

And no- a “moderate vegan diet” can’t provide all the nutrition a child needs. Read your own cite. A “CAREFULL” and “well planne” vegan diet- with special care in those noted nutrients can be. But not just a “moderate vegan diet”- it must be very carefully & “wellplanned” out- and they strongly recommend supplements. Yes, sure- it can be done. But will the child eat it? Will the parent take the care nessesary? Will the parents know the early warning signs of deficiencies?

[John_Mace]

Dan: Thanks for enlightening me about vegan logic. I gotta say, though, that it illudes me.