I don’t. I think it may become a product, and it may be OK in sausages and meatballs, but I really doubt it will replace steaks or other actual cuts of meat anytime soon, if at all. Growing protein-bearing cell cultures for food is already a thing - Quorn mycoprotein production is a viable marketable product, and the results are sorta meat-ish, but they stop short of being really convincing not so much because they aren’t animal cells, but mostly because the product that comes out of the vat is a slurry that has to be processed into meat-like offerings.
I think lab-grown ‘real’ meat cells will work in a similar way - it’ll be meat-ish, but a pale shadow of actual meat.
Right, that’s what I took from it, too? Exaggerated, self-indulgent, foolish pity of fluffy animals with faces.
So what I’m saying in my first sentence is that I have often been accused of sentimentality (well I used to be, a long time ago) by people teasing me with “Aww Gracer loves the poor widdle animals?”
And sure, whatever, I love the poor widdle animals. Wether that is foolish isn’t up to me. It’s not as simple as sentimentality, hence my rather long explanation but I also don’t really feel any particular need to fight the word. From the Latin sentire - to feel. I feel.
Well ok, next time death metal lyrics are directed at me and/or affect me in any way I shall roll my eyes in judgement. No worries, my capacity for judgement is by no means approaching its limits. Plenty more to go around. Death metal has so far just not really affected me much, but my eyes will be ready to roll should the opportunity present itself.
Rap music is still ugly and I don’t like the b-word. [insert eye roll here]
Right and it gives a sense that you’re not alone, I feel? Like you’re not shouldering the enormity of the world’s grief alone, it’s not up to you to complete the task. We’ll hold the line together, when you’re tired you can rest and when you slip it’s ok, I’ll hold the line. Just don’t abandon the task completely.
That’s why you giving up beef and @JackieLikesVariety giving up factory farmed meat literally made me cry: it’s a little less daunting and you chipped a little off the task.
This is something that coul;d be solved with sufficiently advanced technology. We only eat the muscles, right? Bio-print a load of muscles and make them do exercise for a few months before we eat them. In the case of lamb it would be a relatively short period. And why stop at lamb? We could bioprint giraffe, whale, binturong…
Or if we are going to be really ethical about causing harm, only eat meat from animals which can give informed consent. That’s right - humans. You could even narrow it down to only eating meat cloned from yourself.
This all seems wacky, perhaps, but in a couple of hundred years we’ll probably all be eating cloned meat. That would be iff, and only iff, cloned meat is cheaper to produce, uses less total energy than farmed meat, and is both tasty and safe.
We are not there yet - but I expect we will be in due course, unless the powers-that-be make farmed meat compulsory.
Cell cultures aren’t necessarily immortal - after a certain number of generations of replication, they die. There are such things as immortal cell lines that are maintained for laboratory use - HeLa is one notable example - cloned from a cancer biopsy sample from a patient named Henrietta Lacks (hence HeLa) - without her consent, apparently, because that was the norm at the time - the cells are immortal and fast-growing because they are cancerous.
I don’t believe the technology will advance to that stage - once there is a mass-market product that meets some minimum level of acceptability, that will be what lab-grown meat is. My reason for believing this is that the research that led to the development of Quorn could have gone further - selected different microorganisms to culture, to produce different products - it just didn’t - once it got to the point where they had an acceptable product, the push stopped.
Of course it’s not a perfect analogy, because quorn isn’t capable of being grown into complex multicellular structures, but it could (and probably should) have gone further than where it stopped.
I like quorn, and all their edible relatives in the fungal kingdom. The technology of edible fungi is probably in its infancy; don’t give up on it yet.
Hopefully they aren’t sentient in any way, but looking at those hyphae, you never know.
Mostly not my thing despite my omnivory, but a lot of people are very fond of organ meats. Liver most prominently, but sweetbreads (pancreas and thymus glands), chitlins (intestines), tongue, heart, brain, stomach, bone marrow and really damn near every body part including eyeballs. I rather like bone marrow on a fancy burger.
Anthony Bourdain eating warthog anus was apparently a practical joke played on him. But possibly excluding actual anal sphincters, just about everything is relished by someone, somewhere.
I disagree. I think it will be sooner than later. According to the companies below, the taste and texture aspects are very fine-tuned so that they closely mimic their traditional counterparts. Reports on tests and feedback on taste, in most instances, have been positive, with many suggesting cultured meats closely resemble their conventional counterparts’ taste and texture. Here are some specifics I found:
Upside Foods - In numerous taste tests and cooking demonstrations, chefs have prepared Upside Foods’ cultured chicken in various ways. The feedback is uniformly that it tastes like conventional chicken but with differing textures or minor differences in flavor, as noted by some.
Eat Just, Inc. - They have already had their lab-grown chicken served in restaurants in Singapore, and it was incredibly well-received by diners, with many saying it tasted like real chicken.
BlueNalu - The company has done a few tastings of its cultured seafood, mainly to ensure its texture and flavor profile are on par with wild fish. Initial tests yield great results, with professional chefs attesting to the quality of the product.
Finless Foods - Early taste tests of their bluefin tuna product have highlighted its potential. However, as with many such products, ongoing development is aimed at perfecting the taste and texture to mimic wild tuna fully.
Wildtype - Their cultured salmon has already been used for sushi. Already, the response from culinary experts and potential consumers has been promising, with both groups emphasizing that it would be impossible to tell the difference between this fish and wild-caught salmon.
Work is being done to make lab-grown meats not only equal in quality to their traditional counterparts but, in some cases, actually better. I think a big part will be in developing lab-grown adipose. The flavor and texture of fat is an essential factor.
Regarding ethics, recent studies strongly suggest more and more animal species are not only conscious, but many appear to be self-conscious. If an animal is self-conscious it has the capacity to suffer, making animal cruelty a more serious and morally bankrupt offense.
According to this site, many forms of animals are conscious, including fish, lobsters, and octopuses—perhaps even insects! Researchers have observed bees playing by rolling small wooden balls, an indicator of intelligence and sophisticated thinking. Amazingly, the cleaner wrasse fish appears to have passed the self-recognition mirror test—a test used to determine self-awareness in animals.
But, you have to draw a line somewhere. If mosquitoes are found to be conscious, I’m not going to stop swatting them. I do believe there are different degrees of consciousness/self-consciousness, and simpler lifeforms likely don’t suffer much, if at all.
I’ve never doubted that my pets (mostly cats and dogs) are self conscious. This is why that video I watched long ago showing cats and dogs being skinned and boiled alive still haunts me.
I love steak and kidney pie, and I quite like liver. This sort of organ might be easier to grow, and I’m sure we’ll have the technology for that within a few decades.
I’d like to complement you on your defense of rap. I’m personally not exactly big on rap, though there are some (mostly older but somenew stuff too) songs that are absolute bangers.
I totally understood what was being said about animal consumption.
Ah OK.
Yes I think someone upthread tried to insinuate the same about me.
I would personally push back against it, because no-one would call it “sentimental” to not want to assault a baby, say. And I don’t only have concern for fluffy animals; I just don’t want to cause unnecessary suffering. e.g. coconut crabs freak me the hell out, though I still wouldn’t hurt one if I could avoid it. And I wouldn’t relish killing cane toads in a painful way, even though they are a fugly pest.
As we get to smaller organisms with simpler neurology though, like insects, I feel the degree of suffering is likely lower so I accordingly have far less concern. I don’t know for sure, but as a practical matter we have to have some kind of gradient of concern.
It’s just strange to me generalizing though. I listen to a lot of rap and hip-hop, and when you mention the b-word, I struggled to think of any tracks that clearly say that…the only thing that came to mind is a couple NWA tracks from decades ago. I’m not accusing you of lying, what I am saying is that your observation is not intrinsic to all rap music, so why are you generalizing about all people who listen to such music, like me?
And why don’t you generalize about other genres, where we can also find examples of tracks with misogynist lyrics?
Science has shown that plants are more sophisticated than we ever imagined, possibly sentient. (Google is your friend.)
Cruelty during life is unacceptable and unnecessary.
The environmental issues involved are insanely complex, although what I have learned in the last few years leads me to the view that my love of meat is doing less damage in the big long picture than other people’s love of fish and seafood.
All that said: meat is murder. Tasty, tasty murder.
Oh I agree, and certainly with the gradient. But of all things to discuss, debate and push back on this seems minor to me. If someone calls me “sentimental” meaning that in their opinion the fact that I feel (sentire) is foolish or exaggerated then big fat whatev.
I am also judgemental but it’s just not a big deal, I think? Other people’s judgements of me or my judgement of other people. It’s the circle-of-life, push-and-pull of being social animals, the whole shebang wouldn’t work if we didn’t judge. So judge me, I’m sentimental. Such a fool, I am!
If someone judges me foolish for feeling, I think that they have been desensitised, made to value hardness. It’s some form of trauma, probably. I doubt I will help them get in touch with their feelings, allowing in the enormity of the world’s grief in one fell swoop, by pushing back in the moment they call me sentimental. Which is me being judgemental, in a way, and generalising again and I might be wrong. And so on and so forth.
I’m hiding the rap stuff because it’s not really relevant:
Summary
First I should probably make clear that I’m being a little bit facetious, just bit though. Exaggerating. And I picked rap because it’s easy to defend but I just dislike it. I also judge people for bad parenting but everyone agrees and nobody thinks it applies to them (though what makes it bad?) so it doesn’t really paint me as a judgemental arsehole. What I’m mostly saying is: in all those years that you have been enjoying rap and I have been judging you for it (unknowingly, but I judge all listeners) and you’re fine, rap music is fine, everything is fine. My judgement of things is of very little consequence.
But on to rap: I don’t really listen so I have no idea if the b-word is in the actual lyrics in a song. But it does actually impact my life and intrude. It normalises the b-word among certain people. People I know (and even some I like) will enter a room with: “Waddup, bitches” — which is stupid and ridiculous but I’d rather they didn’t. Even quoting “move, bitch, get out the way” became a bit of a thing. People in Europe and the UK, where the culture of the US rap scene is not at all relevant, started imitating the behaviour they see in music videos, like that stupid limp. Up to people pretending that they come from the 'hood (snort) and that there are shootings there (there aren’t and there aren’t enough eye rolls). And when people stop in my street with the engine running and the windows down, the loud music is almost always very ugly rap music (and sometimes hiphop, which can share in my general view), never metal. I’ve never had anyone grunt nasty, murderous metal lyrics at me, I can’t even imagine that as a thing (though again, I have plenty judgement to go around should it happen). And I was a teen in MTV’s music video heyday and the picture they painted leaves me an overall impression that makes me go: “You listen to that ugly crap?! Ugh!” (But mildly and inconsequentially, y’know?)
So you ask why I generalise about all listeners, like you. I’m not sure that I generalise much. I don’t think that you use the b-word or are sexist, just that you listen to rap music. My overall judgement of you goes something like this: what a compassionate, intelligent and articulate person, listens to rap music though side eye
If someone eats meat, I don’t think they enjoy the torture and murder of animals, I just judge them for eating meat.
That’s a nice way to look at it. With my social anxiety, being judged by other people is one of my greatest fears. I am forever worried about doing the Wrong Thing. Parenting helped me a little because you can’t win with parenting. No matter what you do someone’s going to have an opinion about it. People attribute features of my son’s autism to bad parenting. Nothing I can do about it. But it helps if you are confident in yourself and the decisions you make.
Oh yes, sorry, I sort of forget how it can affect some people. Judgement is a weird beast, isn’t it? It was in the title & the OP, so I addressed it in my comment.
In the title/OP it’s seems to be a bad thing: “Vegans who are judgmental”. Don’t be so judgemental. But we’re social animals, we keep each other in check and the judgement and accompanying shame and guilt can be important, I think. They signal something.
The vast, vast majority of judgemental thoughts are just thoughts. Background noise in life, interspersed with other random thoughts.
“Stinky smoker”
“Looks like they vote for the baddies”
“Ugh rap music”
“Ha I wonder if she regrets that tattoo”
“Imagine having to go and buy a cabinet to display your Hummels”
It doesn’t interfere with compassion and certainly not with kindness. Hey, I’m trying to save the planet for all those idiots who vote for the baddies, too.
But I might forget that though I can be kind all day, there are people who might worry about how I judge them, just for the judging. Because you’re right that it doesn’t bother me much. It never did. (Mijin, feel free to judge my taste in music!)
I guess… excessively worrying about judgement (anxiety) is just the natural social signal going a bit overboard, and the fear of being rejected by your community kicks in? But what about your own mild, background-noise judgements? Do you suppress them? (But then how will society function, we need the mild disapproval of the good guys?) Or are you awfully harsh and that’s why you worry about what others think? (Doesn’t seem likely?)
And now for my judgement, as a person apparently very practiced in the art: I pronounce the people who misjudge your parenting unfairly to be judgemental idiots. Formally, but IMHO. (Srsly who tf thinks that autism is caused by parenting in 2024 ugh)
And thank you, you’ve given me a lot to think about.
side eye