Right. Which is what made me think to include that bit of information. What’s your point?
I interpreted your post as saying “Note: not only vegans/vegetarians like tofu. For example, Japanese people like tofu too, even when not vegan/vegetarian”. This was apparently a misinterpretation.
No, my intent was to share the info about how tofu is used in other cultures. For example, someone might expect non-vegetarian Japanese to eat tofu but still be surprised that they would eat tofu *in the same dish as *meat.
Did you mean to say:
You seem to suggest that, if you think humans shouldn’t eat meat because to do so is cruel, then to be consistent you **should **think tigers **shouldn’t **eat meat, because to do so is cruel. Is that right?
I think that’s what you meant.
For one, I don’t think that (that humans shouldn’t eat meat b/c to do so is cruel) but I was curious about the mindset of people who do.
Early humans evolved as omnivores - that is, able and willing to eat both plant matter and animal meat. (Dentition, digestive tract length, etc. prove this. Our reliance on dietary sources of vitamin B-12, which is only found in animal products, is another clue.) Am I understanding this right … now that we have evolved a higher intelligence and a sense of morality, that we shouldn’t eat what we evolved to eat (meat)? Is that the argument?
Yes I know, I make a fantastic sukiyaki [that omits the mushrooms]
I first became a vegetarian about 15 yrs ago (reading the book, “Diet for a New America” just pushed me over the edge, from someone who rarely ate meat to someone who realized I didn’t want to eat it ever again!).
I spent several of those years as a vegan; A dietary vegan, by which I mean that I was never totally in with the whole “philisophical vegan” crowd…yes, I wear leather and silk and have wool rugs. For one, most of the leather and silk I own were bought second-hand, for another, wool is not something which involves the abuse or killing of sheep, as a rule, but, like Alpaca farming, relies upon good treatment of the animals and periodic hair cuts :rolleyes: and for yet another, I refuse to have the term hijacked by radicals…I have the perfect right to call myself a VEGAN and mean simply that I don’t EAT anything made from or derived from animals, thank you very much you self-righteous, self-proclaimed guardians of language. :mad:
Yes, even many vegans/vegetarians despise the self-righteous, extreme crowd. 
I currently eat some fish (wild, line caught salmon and tuna) just because I LIKE it. I guess technically I am no longer a vegetarian (as my now 10 yr old daughter pointed out when I began doing so a few yrs ago) but whatever.
I YAM what I YAM. 
Ok, so WHY? Everything. Health. Animal cruelty/rights/factory farming. Economics. Ecology. The incredible waste and suffering involved in feeding 80% of our grain crops (which consume 80% of our ariable land in the US) to grow food for animals to produce meat which all the poor, starving people of the world can’t AFFORD, when we could easily grow more than enough food for PEOPLE. The on-going holocaust of the billions of animals raised and slaughtered annually in the US and more worldwide under horribly cruel conditions to feed a non-existant “need” in the human diet. The millions of tons of animal waste being dumped into our waterways and lands every year, carrying e-coli to our crops and polluting. The massive waste of water, topsoil, etc…associated with factory farming/meat production, the documented effects on human health associated with an animal based diet, cross-species contamination (i.e. mad cow, e-coli, salmonela) etc…etc…
And finally, once I stopped eating meat, it became incredibly disgusting to me. Not only because I saw it as what it actually was (dead, already rotting flesh…mmmm, the more rotten, the more tender! YUM!) but because like an ex-smoker, the odors became incredibly noxious to me. The smell of cooking meat is not enticing but nauseating. Walking past the meat department in a grocery store is like walking through the rancid, overpowering stench of a mass murder scene (seriously, just on a physical level, I can smell the blood and rotting flesh I used to not notice or find appetizing and literally gag.)
I simply don’t LIKE meat anymore, and never miss it or experience cravings for it (as I said, the occaisional good fresh fish aside).
All that said, my late husband of 23 yrs never stopped eating meat and I never cared, as long as I didn’t have to handle raw meat or smell it cooking in the house. Obviously, he ate a mostly veggie diet as a result, but he got by. Lunch meats, pre-cooked stuff, eating out, slabs o’ left-over ham and turkey from family dinners, etc…
I am not concerned with what others eat (well, I am concerned over what my KIDS eat, but past a certain age, it is up to them, like everyone else).
But personally, I think it’s unhealthy (at least in the quantities and forms consumed today), cruel and economically and environmentally unsound (given the common methods used today of raising meat), and well, just Icky.
P.s. the human animal, by all physiological standards, is actually closer to a frugavore (like the other great apes) than an omnivore, herbivore or (certainly) a carnivore. The teeth, the digestive tract, the lack of ability to process dietary cholestorol, the composition of the saliva and stomach acids, etc… As for B12, it is produced in the gut by microorganisms found in healthy dirt and on plants. Where do you think the COWS get THEIR B12? Being herbivores?
I apologize for the misspelling…frugIvore.
I realize this is a controversial issue, but wanted to post something in more detail on my comment nonetheless. This deals mainly with the dental realm, but there is much more evidence in support of the theory that humans are, biologically, best adapted to a primarily vegetarian diet, or at the least originated as such and have the limited ability to adapt to an omnivorous diet as needed or preferred.
We, like other herivores or frugivores use suction to drink as opposed to lapping. Our digestive tracts are much longer than those of carnivores or even most omnivores. We lack the claws and teeth necessary to bring down an antelope without other weapons (or effectively chew and digest it raw, as every other natural carnivore easily can). etc. And most of us tend to have a “natural” aversion to ripping into raw, bloody meat…as someone once said, “Put a toddler in a playpen with an apple and a rabbit. If it eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, I’ll give you a million dollars.”
One of the reasons humans have been so successful, I think, is our ability to adapt to changing food sources as needed, but given our basic physical make-up, we have yet to adapt to a diet heavy in meat, dairy (which NO other animal naturally consumes past weaning, and NEVER from a species other than its own), refined grains and sugars, and the assorted other crap so many now largely subsist upon.
Yes, SOME chimps eat meat and hunt, other don’t. Seems to be a largely cultural factor. Yes, other great apes consume insects as they eat vegetation (as do we, like it, know it or not). Some will eat eggs or small mammals or reptiles. But the primary diet is, indisputably, FRUIT and other “succlulent” vegatable matter (as opposed to very fiberous plants which herbivores have evolved to digest).
I am not a Christian but have long found the mythology fascinating…the story, as told, is that God created Humans and said, “Every tree bearing fruit and every herb bearing seed after its own kind, to you it shall be for meat” (“meat” literally being translated as “food”). It was not until after “the fall” and specifically, after the Great Flood, that the God of the Bible granted explicit permission to eat meat (and perhaps not coincidental that at the same time that “He” gave Noah that directive, “He” also declared that the new average human lifespan would go from thousands of years to 120 ;)).
As I said, I am tolerant of all eating choices. I just find this issue interesting overall, and wonder if perhaps global climate changes like ice ages and northern migration might have had some effect on human diet (being forced to rely more on meat and cooking as opposed to eating a largely raw diet of fruits and vegetation.)
"Dr Alan Walker and his associates, anthropologists at John Hopkins University,
using the most modern electronic microscopic equipment,
state: “Preliminary studies of fossil teeth have led to the startling suggestion
that our early human ancestors (Australopithecus) were not
predominantly meat-eaters or even eaters of seeds, shoots, leaves or grasses,
nor were they omnivorous. Instead they appear to have
subsisted chiefly on a diet of fruit. Every tooth examined from the hominids of
the 12 million year period leading up to Homo Erectus
appeared to be that of a fruit-eater.” - NY Times, May 1979
The essence of Walker’s research is that even though humans have adopted
omnivorous and carnivorous eating practices, our anatomy and physiology
have not changed. We remain biologically a species of fruit eaters. The human
digestive system has been adapted to a diet of fruits and vegetables for more
than 60 million years of development. A few thousand years of aberrant eating
will not change our dietary requirements for optimum health. The position that
humans occupy in the animal kingdom is that of the Primate order, which
means that, from the point of view of anthropology, our closest animal relatives
are the anthropoid apes (anthropoid means “resembling man” or “man-like”).
This species includes gorillas, monkeys and chimps all of whom are classified
as frugivores. From the perspective of physiology, our human biology and
digestion most closely resemble our closest cousin in the animal kingdom, the
orangutan. Even our DNA genetic material is well over 95% identical. Humans
developed on fruits just as simians and other primates in nature. In
consequence, some anthropologists and biologists have classified humans as
frugivores.
Georges Cuvier
“The natural food of man, judging from his structure, appears to consist
principally of the fruits, roots, and other succulent parts of vegetables. His
hands afford every facility for gathering them; his short but moderately strong
jaws on the other hand, and his canines being equal only in length to the other
teeth, together with his tuberculated molars on the other, would scarcely
permit him either to masticate herbage, or to devour flesh, were these
condiments not previously prepared by cooking.”
Your rephrasing is much more elegant than my original; thanks!
I’m not vegetarian, remember, although I was for a long time. I do think that Tom Regan lays out a mighty convincing case, though, and I think that the argument that we ought to be able to do the things that tigers do is a poor argument.
I also don’t think that what we evolved to do has any relevance whatsoever on what we should or shouldn’t do. From what we can see of other primates, we probably also evolved to commit the occasional act of rape, infanticide, cannibalism, and small-scale warfare. Certainly each of these acts can, under certain circumstances, increase the likelihood of our passing along our genes.
However, we do not approve of any of these acts, because whether or not we evolved to do them, they fly in the face of what we consider moral.
Whether eating meat is moral must therefore be judged not based on some Spencerian concept of evolution, but rather on what’s actually, y’know, moral. And according to some beliefs about morality, you gotta judge it on whether it’s causing suffering.
As I stated previously, we ain’t cows. Cows get their B12 from their four stomachs, presumably, which isn’t really an option for us. Cows can subsist on raw grass, whereas we can’t.
I encourage you to read that column. Tom Robbins is great for when you’re a teenager, but his arguments are pretty flimsy in the face of any real skepticism; he’s closer to a conspiracy theorist than to a scientist, IMO. (I say this as someone who found him highly convincing around the time that I found Tom Regan highly convincing, but who found that Regan’s arguments continued to hold up where Robbins’s didn’t).
I just must say, that is YOUR definition of the term “vegan”. It is also perfectly valid for someone to use it as a term describing their dietary preferences/convictions. (as in, “Is that cake vegan?”…I could give a shit if they drove in a car to pick it up or slapped the dog when he tried to eat it…what is it MADE of?:smack:)
I fully respect your right to use that term to describe your full devotion to a cause. I just ask that I be allowed to use it to describe my preference not to eat animal bits. Can we at least agreee that we are on pretty much the same side? 
Please refrain from condescending to me. I cited Robbins in the context of his being the particular book I happened to read way back when which had an impact on my personal choice, not as the be all and end all.
I have likely read more on this particular topic than most, and from a multitude of sources (including medical and nutritionist journals); have been there, done that and while I never got a t-shirt, know pretty much what the fuck I am talking about after 15 yrs as a vegetarian/vegan and 2 kids and a degree in Child Development which included courses on nutrition plus several yrs working in a vegetarian/vegan preschool. 
If you want to eat meat, dairy, shit, or whatever , I don’t care, as I said. Just please don’t try and convince me I MUST or I will suffer horrible consequences. That’s utter bullshit and I know it both from the science to date and personal experience.
First, I never made any suggestion that humans were “herbivores”. That, of course, is ridiculous. I cited some evidence and asserted that in my opinion (based on all the evidence I’ve seen) humans are most likely frugivores (originally) who have adapted to an omniverous diet (which doesn’t always agree with them, since they physically have not adapted as rapidly to consuming such fare).
Humans also produce B12 with our single stomach (actually lower down) IF we have access to the microbes (which can, I grant, be an issue due to the use of synthetic fetilizers and pesticides and the overly sterile plant foods produced on them). Foods grown on fertile soil and washed in tap water supply these bugs in abundance. To be more accurate, the bacteria in our guts produce it…neither plants nor animals have the ability to produce B12 on their own.
The larger issue with B12 is that it is depleted or its ability to be created in the body compromised by certain factors…alcohol being a big one, smoking, high protein diet and an out of balance gut being some others.
So we eat meat and other animal products (cows, fish, deer, pigs, squirrels, birds, all sorts of meat from animals with all numbers of stomachs, plus the eggs or milk of some) to get B12. Where do THEY get it from? 
I mean, it’s in their FLESH and MILK and EGGS…do they take supplements? Are we the ONLY animal which can’t produce B12/allow bacteria to produce B12 in our bodies? :rolleyes:
It is created in their bodies from the microbes they ingest and which generate it in their gut, just like WE do! I can assure you a hunk of gorilla meat would have a lot of B12 in it. So would a hunk of non-supplmenting vegan human meat. Lots of reasons someone might be deficient in B12, but not eating other animals or their squirtings is not one. Not UNLESS they had some underlying condition inhibiting their own production.
I recall reading a column once by a local writer, highlighting the issue of B12 deficiency…she warned of the risks to vegetarians, then described her summer…meat only maybe 4 times a week (“only” :p) and lots of drinking of wine and beer. Turned out, she reported, that as a result of eating “so little” meat, she was found to be deficient. In reality, she was almost certainly deficient due to her high alcohol intake (which both depletes B12 AND compromises the ability of the gut to produce it) and her regular consumption of meat, which likewise can create a hostile environment in the gut for B12 production.
All in all, B12 is a supplement some vegetarians and vegans take just in case, since the consequences (although highly rare and unlikely) can be serious. Since it is readily available in vegan forms (produced on yeast by bacteria) it is hardly a big deal even to those who foreswear all animal products or derivatives.
Most ‘frugivores’ amongst our primate relatives supplement their diets with meat. All chimps hunt and capuchins, the New World primate with the highest encephilization quotient after humans (higher than chimps), do too which suggests big brains require more meat. However, they eat considerably less meat than the modern American does, and modern humans can get by fine on a diet without meat.
I’m heading vegetarian for environmental reasons. I’ve seen first-hand the destruction of the rainforest and tropical forests due to cattle farming (it’s worse than logging), and I’ve read plenty of reports on how the way we raise cattle is horrible for everyone involved. Since moving vegetarian, I’ve been a lot healthier and my diet has been considerably richer.
For all those who’ve had trouble moving veggie - go slowly. The first time I tried to go veggie, I had horrible headaches and weakness problems. Now, I am the most active I have ever been in my life (and probably ever will be), but I have no problem at all getting all the nutrients I need. I’ve been moving slowly, eliminating consumption bit by bit in part to avoid any negative health side effects. Due to the limited availability of veggie products here in Costa Rica, I’m down to eating chicken on occasion and fish very rarely. I hope to go completely veg within the next year. I don’t object to certain types of meat - bison culled from national parks, and sustainably and humanely raised poultry - but I hope to never touch anything made from cattle ever again.
I think it’s alright to substitute your diet with meat in the beginning or if you really have problems getting protein, but you can work an incredibly taxing job without supplementing your diet with meat and be healthy if you know how to eat right. I work in an exhausting industry - I’m on my feet from sun up to sun down two out of every three days for 25 days straight, outdoors in tropical heat, and constantly climbing up and down hills. Many of my coworkers are vegetarian and they do fine. I have to admit that I’ve had to move into it slowly, but I’m also hypoglycemic, and my body doesn’t seem to process things right. Most of us aren’t actually as starved for protein as we think.
These charts show what the average person needs protein wise and what foods are rich in it. Another chart of protein.
If you find vegetarian food unpalatable, you aren’t cooking it right. I make dishes that my meat-eating coworkers crave and constantly request, and I’m doing it in a non-veggie friendly country with limited supplies. Lentils make a good substitute for ground beef and can be used in tacos, chili, soups, etc. They are super easy to prepare and, with a slow cooker, take practically no time. I admit I’m a cook who loves to spend hours in the kitchen, making everything from scratch when I can, but I also know plenty of veggie short-cuts. If time is an issue for you, invest in a good slow-cooker, make your own trail mix, and stock up on protein infused rice, pasta, and drinks.
I have no problem with carnivores (I keep a cat) because carnivores require meat and don’t cause widespread environmental destruction. Carnivores aren’t destroying the rainforest, on the contrary, they are an important part of the ecosystem.
Yeah, but you’re not “a vegan” if you eat fish at all. You could say you eat a vegan diet most of the time but occasionally have fish. But saying, “I’m vegan” and then having fish just muddies the waters even more for veg*ns who don’t eat any animal flesh and get arguments from meat-eaters about how they can eat fish, or chicken, or other meat “because vegetarians can eat this!”
Interested Observer, can you please provide a cite that humans are biologically capable of synthesizing their own B-12 under normal circumstances? Because I have never heard that. I’ve also been taught that animal products are a source of B-12 because other animals *can *synthesize it. Are you saying that we could if we only ate organic, non-pesticide-laced food that has the right bacteria on it?
A good analogy is Vitamin C. We - and guinea pigs - are among the few animals that don’t sythesize our own vit. C. Do cows and cats and things take vitamin C pills, or get it in their diet? Of course not. They don’t need it … but we do!
If I didn’t know how every piece of meat I eat was raised and processed, I’d be sorely tempted to adopt a vegetarian diet.
I won’t eat anything that’s been tortured and pumped full of antibiotics to provide me with a meal.
I also care equally about how the human workers that raise and slaughter the meat are treated.
Last summer we had a man working with us out here that had just quit his job at the Sanderson Farms processing plant.
He had a nasty fungal infection under every finger. I could go on in depth about the conditions there but many of the migrant crop workers in California and Florida work in horrific circumstances too.
Animals raised sustainably can lead decent lives and improve the land.
Take my farm as an example.
Our soil is sugar sand and we couldn’t make a living raising crops-even if we dumped a ton of fossil fuel based fertilizer on it.
However, we *can *raise pastured poultry on native grasses and plants.
As the chickens are fed an extemely high quality ration, their poop works as a wonderful fertilizer and by moving the birds daily, we ensure that the land is never inundated by manure.
I have no problems at all with people that adopt a vegetarian diet but I am a little amused by those that do it to spare animals.
A wheat combine leads a path of destruction in it’s wake.
Unless you grow everything you eat in your garden, something died so that you could live.
I’m not condescending to you, but your credentials are meaningless if you’re repeating incorrect information. I, too, have read many, many books on the issue, as I believe is clear, but rather than hold that up as a shield against correction, I invite you to correct specific claims I’ve made.
You said that “the human animal, by all physiological standards, is actually closer to a frugavore (like the other great apes) than an omnivore…” I think that’s nonsense, and I linked you to an article that gives a few reasons why it’s nonsense. Do you disagree with the reasons in that article?
Here are some of them:
-Our digestive tracts are shorter than those of herbivores.
-We are unable to break down cellulose.
-We’ve got specialized teeth that can attack seeds, others that can attack fruit, and others that can attack meat. Herbivores, for example, have flat molars and lack canine teeth, whereas omnivores have a variety of teeth.
-Herbivores tend to have eyes on the side of their head, so they can see predators coming from any direction and flee quickly. Omnivores and carnivores tend to have eyes on the front of their head, so they can judge distance to the prey accurately.
-We have evidence that humans have eaten meat for at least two million years. If we’d previously evolved not to eat meat, two million years is plenty of time for us to adapt to meat in our diets.
Finally, not being familiar with the term “frugivore,” I looked it up. Turns out that some frugivores are omnivores. So claiming that we’re closer to a frugivore than to an omnivore is not a meaningful claim.
Maybe vegetarians and vegans don’t Dope on the weekends. (If so - hey! You have something in common with this carnivore! 
) Anyway, I was having such a nice time playing with my new friends pout so I was hoping we could continue this conversation, pretty please with an organically grown, hand-harvested fair trade cherry on top?
Interested Observer, you still out there?