How could they condemn a coup that they participated in and supported?
For whom? Maybe for the ruling oligarchy, who might have to give up a slight amount of their vast wealth. But, for the vast majority of the people of Venezuela, Chavez’s reforms have helped them.
Bribing the masses?
Pardon me, but a huge wave of disgust just rolled over me.
Whew, OK. Now, Chavez “bribed” the masses by trying to alleviate the crushing poverty that most people in Venezuela live under. Oh yeah, and “bribing the masses,” as you put it, or in other words, working for the people, is exactly what a democratic government is supposed to do!
My ex wife hates Chavez and she’s hardly ruling class (she grew up in 23 de enero).
Chavez has destroyed the middle class in Venezuela.
I admit that Venezuela probably needed a Chavez to get out from under AD and COPEI (the 2 major political parties) and if he had stepped aside then he would probably be a hero to most Venezuelans.
But he has no plan that I have ever herd of to pull people out of poverty that doesn’t involve sticking it to the rich.
I agree that the coup attempt was ill considered (as was Chavez’s coup attempt in the early 90’s) but that guy will never let go of power elections or no elections so something drastic will have to be done eventually or South America’s oldest democracy will become it’s newest dictatorship.
Chavez seemed like a good idea. He blew it, mostly because he has no plan. Crushing investors and sticking out the tongue to the middle class hardly counts as an economic strategy. The 60’s are over, the cold war is over. Money rules, the word of the day is Capitalism, and when money flee Venezuela (and trust me, it is, and it will continue to do so) who do you think will suffer the most? The rich? Give me a break!
Ok… I may sound a little too “involved”, it is only that the continous mutual ass-kissing between Chavez and His Dumbness (our president) and the situation of both countries resembling some sort of twin Twilight Zones it kinda gets personnal for me.
I have sat and heard Chavez’s long speeches on Venezuelan TV (I get at least one channel from most Latin American countries on cable) and all I can think is “WTF?!”.
It is personal to me too (of course). I think that Chumpsky is blinded to what happens because he’s not involved. He doesn’t live here so he cannot tell that Chavez is helping the poor people (the biggest lie here).
I can see why you understand this Mighty_Girl and I hope both of our countries get to a good ending.
BTW, I am watching Venezuelan TV, live right now. They are showing protesters in Santa Mónica, Terrazas del Avila, people being attacked by the military. If it is only the rich protesting I have to say that Venezuela have more rich people than any other country.
On the other hand, the press couldn’t be more biased. You could call it the Anti-Chavez press. It does a disservice to whatever cause they defend.
And I insist, a coup is a BAD idea in so many levels.
Chávez is following in Castro’s footsteps. What Castro did was a bad idea then but it is a much worse idea today. Castro has manage to divide his country in two halves which are irreconciliable and the damage will take generations to heal. Chávez is managing to do the same thing.
I do know dictators sailor, I came from a country that was considered to have a “democratic” government and the opposition press was regularly bombed and editors killed, Castro did strangle the free press in Cuba, The fact that Chavez has not closed the “free” opposition press speaks volumes to me about what Chavez really is, maybe a doofus, but not a dictator now. On the big picture, ever since Ortega in Nicaragua, the idea that scoundrels like Chavez will automatically become dictators and ignore popular will is not to be trusted, particularly when other undemocratic forces are attempting to take power at the same time.
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If, by “doing something for the poor,” you mean running the economy into the ground, at a time when record oil prices and production should have an economy like Venezuela’s thriving.
:rolleyes:
Though I am supportive of Venezuelans waiting to take the constitutional route to oust Chávez, my opinion could change quickly if it’s shown that he takes illegal steps between now and August to solidify his power and his cronies, to the detriment of his people. He should be watched with hawk eyes, without a doubt.
That’s one of the main accusations against Chávez now - that he hasn’t fulfilled any of his promises since taking office, only tried to entrench his supporters into positions of political and economic power.
But I agree that there is public skepticism of the motivations behind Chávez’s opponents. At least they seem more capitalist and free-market minded. That’s the approach that is going to most benefit the average Venezuelan.
“If, by “doing something for the poor,” you mean running the economy into the ground, at a time when record oil prices and production should have an economy like Venezuela’s thriving.”
Of course, the same could be said about Mexico, but people do not get the message: Many are still leaving that country. I do agree that capitalism has still a lot to offer, but not the robber baron kind. Don’t forget also that there is no Chavez in Argentina and Brazil, and yet their economies are being run into the ground.
?? Most Latin American nations are divided between extremes of wealth and poverty. I don’t see where neoliberalism has had any particular success in bridging this divide. If anything Cuba is a more egalitarian society. You might say “yeah, they’re equal in poverty” – but don’t forget free health care, education system, etc. At least the majority of citizen’s aren’t living in abject poverty, as in so many other Latin American countries.
None of this excuses the lack of democracy in Cuba… yet it’s ironic that when democracy comes to Cuba (and it will), Castro will have laid a better foundation for it – through Cuba’s social programs – than exists in many so-called democracies.
>> but don’t forget free health care, education system, etc. At least the majority of citizen’s aren’t living in abject poverty
Ace_Face, you, obviously, have not been to Cuba. let me break the news to you: the free health care is a myth, the education system is a myth and the immense majority of Cubans are living in abject poverty. Go and saty in any hotel there and you will know what I mean. They beg for soap, for toothpaste for anything you can give them. They beg you to take their letters and mail them outside the country. They beg you to send them medicines when you get back home. There is a severe shortage of all medical supplies and ity is only alleviated by donations from outside and most come from the bad old USA. Cuba has a system which has failed utterly and is living off the charity of other nations. The buses in Havana are the old buses which Spain was getting rid of and they still have the original Spanish commercials painted on the outside. Same with the trash cans. Your post shows you are totally ignorant about Cuban reality. Go spend a week there and then we’ll talk.
Amen to you brother! Let me point out that the so-called <<free health care, education>> crap in Cuba is in fact subsidized by the miserly wages paid <<by the government>> to Cuban workers. I’m talking on the order of $10-$20 a month for most jobs. I think it’s telling that the best paid people in Cuba are Havana police who make in the order of $40-$50 a month.
You’re correct that I haven’t been to Cuba, but I have been to other third world countries (The Phillipines and Thailand in particular) and witnessed the begging, unsanitary conditions and similar depridations that can be found throughout much of the Third World. These are countries not being subjected to economic blockades and the overt/covert hostility of the world’s remaining superpower.
I have no illusions about Cuba as a “worker’s paradise,” or that the original Cuban model is sustainable (or desirable), with or without an embargo. I found the Sandinista approach more interesting, hewing closer to a Scandinavian-type social democracy. But those Reagan criminals snuffed that out pretty quick.
Nonetheless you can’t so easily dismiss Cuba’s literacy gains (even if exaggerated), low infant mortality and other social indicators, in the face of decades of U.S. hostility. As I said, these could provide a foundation for something positive in the future.
Castro and the embargo are the reasons why it is not better.
Right now in other Latin countries like in El Salvador there is pressure from the Neo-cons to dismantle universal health care. So far, doctors are the ones fighting changes that will result in less treatment for their patients.
Ace, even if you believe the stats from Cuba, and you really shouldn’t more on that later, the next question should be what was the cost of those <<gains>>? The total loss of political freedom, the total loss of freedom of movement, the total loss of freedom of speech, the total loss of a middle class, the total loss of ANY choice in government, in raising your own family, in where you work, live, and so on. And then ask yourself if those <<gains>> are justified by the losses, most Cubans when given a chance say no, as witnessed by the mass exodus everytime there’s a chance.
Now for why the stats from Cuba are suspect. Believe this or not, I don’t care, it happened. My cousin studied to be a pediatrician in Cuba, and after finishing at the University was sent to practice to a town in Oriente (Cuban doctors start practicing after university, no residency requirements).
While practicing there he was sent a <<cuban developed measles vaccine>> with directions to administer to all children under his care. He did. A few weeks later a few kids developed measles, which he reported to his bosses.
He then received a visit from his boss and someone <<from Havana>>. He was then told that only one of two things was possible, either 1. he had failed to vaccinate <<all>> children as directed, or 2. he was mistaken and what the children had was a <<measles-like viral infection>>, but not measles. The reason, he was told, was that the vaccine was <<proven>> to be 100% effective.
My cousin argued back and forth with them for a while, but eventually he got the gist that whatever he wrote it was gonna be changed anyway, so he told them to write whatever they wanted and he would sign it. The final report said the children had developed <<measles-like viral infections>>.
Btw, my cousin left medicine not long after. He still lives in Cuba, but is not a doctor anymore.
Just a small, maybe not so small, nit to pick, the letter is not <<from>> Cuba. It is from a someone who <<visited>> Cuba, on a state sponsored tour.
While I agree that the embargo is a convenient excuse for castro, it is hardly more than that. Cuban pharmacies have available <<any>> medicine you want, as long as you have dollars to pay for it.
The exact opposite is the case. The capitalist and “free” market neoliberalism “approach” are exactly what creates the vast misery and crushing poverty in the most of the Third World.
And please people, stop all the lying about Chavez and Cuba. If you are going to condemn leftists, at least be honest about it. Don’t try to pretend you have any interest in the poor.
Hu uh, in this case I think I am correct Chumpsky; my big point is that a lack of democracy (read checks and balances) does generate cases like bayonet described. Still, I would not base positions on anecdotes, if that were the case I need to tell you that I have heard of cases of Miami Cubans going to Cuba to get affordable health care. So it goes both ways.