Venezuela's Political Situation

Great Debates
41

Ah, Chumpsky – never saw an extreme leftist he didn’t like. And I say this as a lefty myself.

Except, see, I get my information firsthand, not filtered through who knows how many partisan hands before it arrives at where I’m sitting in my comfortable armchair. I’m very good friends with a couple of Central American activists, both left-oriented, one of whom is Venezuelan himself (native, i.e. “Indian,” in ethnicity). By no stretch of the imagination is Chavez anything other than a pompous, self-absorbed, self-deluded demagogue who has figured out the trick of playing both ends against each other in a short-sighted scheme to maintain his own grasp on power. He is actively damaging the country, Chumpsky – period. Assertions to the contrary are flat-out ignorant.

Oh, and in general response to ZooMetropolis, regarding the question, what is the international press saying: Not very much at all, at least not on the front pages or on television. If I didn’t have those two friends to keep me filled in, I probably wouldn’t even know there was a crisis in Venezuela. The sad fact is that the news in the U.S. tends to be about that which has a direct and immediate effect on our lives, and, for better or for worse, Venezuelan affairs don’t even show up on the radar screen.

42

Chumsky:

**
Funny, then, that the people who want Chavez gone are business owners AND union leaders. Let’s see, that’s … manufacturers, and … workers.

You can throw in the media, most other political parties, and the mayor of the country’s most important city. And the vast majority of citizens in general. Chavez’s popularity stands at 30 percent.

Let’s have a poll. Better yet, let’s have a referendum. Of course, then you would just say the people were stupid, uninformed, or duped by liars. Too bad I have to enforce my “one rolleyes smiley per thread” rule, now.

As for Chavez and Castro, what’s a lie? Your leader wants to turn Venezuela into Cuba South. Thankfully, most Venezuelans see that as lunacy.

43

Duh! Of course, it is the same in almost every poor country.

As someone who’s bein in Cuba, I have to say that it is more like a rundown country that looks like a cut from The Godfather. Everything is so old is falling down, people are very poor (that being said by a citizen of another 3rd world country). The myth of universal education sounds a lot like people complaining that during our last dictatorship people didn’t litter, the streets were clean and there was less petty crime. Another duh! I am not a rightist, more like a moderate leftist, but I know BS when I see it.

Chavez just happens to copy Castro’s style in clothing, I don’t see him as any different from the demagogues in these countries (ditto for my own country). Same strategy

Funny thing is if Chavez is outed he will probably join his nemesis Carlos Andrés Pérez in his “comfortable exile” in our country. Oh the irony!

44

I am not going to waste time with Chumpsky as it is clear he lives in a world which has no connection with the reality in which normal people live in. I think we pretty much have a consensus that Castro has been a disaster for Cuba. Anyone who has the least doubt should go there and check the place out for himself. i have seen the poverty, the misery, the police taking people away, the repression. I have seen all that and more. It cannot be denied that he has divided the Cuban people to the point where it will take generations to the enmity to settle. All who could left the island. Many who are there are held against their will. They will resort to anything to get out. I know the Spanish consulate in Havana has a long waiting list to perform marriages. To get an exit visa a cuban must pay an astronomical amount, impossible for any Cuban to get, and so they are held captive in their own land. A few are lucky enough to find a foreign mate who will marry them and pay the exit visa which allows them to leave.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia discontinued economic help which is all that was holding Cuba and Cuba became desperate but their economy was a shambles. They produced close to nothing. They made arrangements with European and Canadian hotel chains and tour operators to set up hotels and tours. And so, it is again capitalism that is providing the cash Cuba needs to keep functioning. But the Cuban government provides the workers at a certain high price to the foreign companies and then pockets the money and pays the workers a misery. I had the opportunity to talk to one of the managers of the Spanish hotel chain Melia and he told me managing a hotel in Cuba was a nightmare. The first thing you need to do is have measures to prevent theft because your employees will take anything they can, including samples of soap, shampoo, toothpaste, toilet paper, etc. They are just in desperate need of these things.

The Cuban government is just incapable of managing a hotel because when they did the jobs went to those with Party connections, not to those qualified for the jobs. Now all foreign hotels are managed by their foreign parent companies.

The Cuban government just lets the foreign companies run their business in pure capitalist style and gets a cut of the profits which go to pay the repressive police and to prop up the regime. The people see nothing so they have to get by as best they can. Some have to steal what little there is. Others are corrupt and you can pretty much buy anybody.

The embargo not withstanding, there ARE goods for sale for those who have dollars, which pretty much means foreigners. You can buy anything if you have dollars. The problem is not the embargo. The problem is the Cuban economy produces nothig which can be sold for cash to buy foreign stuff.

The cops have brand new uniforms, guns, walkie talkies, motorcycles. They come from Japan, Europe, the US. The Cuban Government has money for that. It just doesn’t have money to feed the people.

I truly recommend a trip to Cuba to anyone and everyone. It is an unforgettable experience. The Cuban people are really nice and warm. It is sad that they are in this situation

45

Just a few minutes, someone (or a group) was shooting against an opposition gathering in the “Plaza Francia”. There are at least two people dead and some injured.

This is a link to CNN in english

The front page of a Venezuelan newspaper

Chumpsky, now what do you say about the people that are in favor of the government (Chavez and his clowns)?
I can’t believe that all the things you say are your beliefs. You should be informed a little more before expressing things that are not true.

46

At the BBC News Front Page (World Edition)

This is IMHO the most veracious news site. I don’t trust too much in CNN.

47

Let’s see, that’s … manufacturers, and … some union leaders.
:smack:

We see what exactly capitalists mean by democracy when you look at Venezuela. Since the white conquerers took the land by force, killing raping and looting, and finally stealing the entire country, it has been ruled by a white ruling class which descended from the original rapists. Ahh, so now they have democracy! Yes, come out and participate, come vote! We will give you some nice candidates who will continue to fuck you in the ass.

There was a minor snag, though. They opened the door to a president who actually wanted to do something for the poor. No worries, they think. We control the media, industry, and the political process. No way he can win. Oh, but he does, overwhelmingly.

Now, this is a serious problem, they think. What horrors might befall us! We might have to give up some of our privilege. We might have to allow some of the enormous wealth of the country be used to help the poor. Yeah, we realize that we will still be filthy rich, but still… So, we’ve got to get rid of this guy.

So, on we go, in a quite familiar routine. Let’s get the media to play 24 hours a day of anti-Chavez propaganda, about how he is a communist, a terrorist, how he is destroying the country, turning the country into another Cuba, etc. Never mind that Chavez has not touched the capitalist system, and has made some very minor reforms that cost the country almost nothing but helped the poor a great deal. Still…

So, we enlist our capitalist friends from the north, and try to oust him by force. Ooops! Didn’t realize there was so much support. Ah well, he can come back. But, dammit! He just doesn’t play by our rules! He must stop trying to help those damn poor people! Let’s try again. Let’s disrupt the economy. We’ll get all our friends to call a strike and shut the country down. We’ll send all of our capital to the U.S., and generally cause as much havoc as possible. Since we own the fucking country, it will work, right?

It might.

48

If lies like this don’t totally demolish your credibility, then the rest of your post should.

49

The media didn’t do anything until the people couldn’t take it anymore. Yes, the PEOPLE. Not just the ruling class, but the poor class too.

Since he Chavez was doing public speakings more than once a day (transmitting on all private channels. this we call hear “cadena” chain). And the worst came when there was a massacre on April 11th 2002, and the president started the speaking in chain AT THE SAME TIME that the opposition gathering was being shot at. So the private channels splitted the screen in two to make the people see what was happening. What does Chavez do? he shuts ALL the private channels. Where’s the freedom here?
And what has been done for all the people killed on that day? NOTHING.

He wouldn’t have come back if it wasn’t for the actions taken by the dummies that took power. Even the opposition (YES, you heard that right) knows that all the things done by Carmona Estanga was a mistake.

50

I have no doubt that you saw many terrible things in Cuba. I have no doubt that, if you were to visit El Salvador, Nicaragua, Hondouras, Guatemala, Panama, Mexico. etc, etc, you will also see many terrible things. (And I have friends who have been to most of these countries, with horror stories to match yours.)

You emphasize that people are eager to leave. Have you not noticed the number of Mexicans, Salvadorians, Haitans, etc, even more eager to enter the U.S., despite a much less favorable immigration policy?

Now, for all the terrible things you saw in Cuba, did you once ask yourself, “what role did my country play in creating this mess?” Isn’t it just a bit too easy to sit back and blame the foreigners when your own government has played a decisive and often brutal role in the country, for over a century? You’ll recall that under the dictator Batista Cuba was essentially the 51st state. And that the U.S. actually tried to invade Cuba, and made several attempts to assassinate Castro.

It’s not at all clear what shape Cuba would be in today had the U.S. not displayed it’s hostility from almost the day Castro took power. We will never know what Chile would have been like under Allende, or Guatemala under Arbenz, or Nicaragua under Sandinistas (who, like the Cubans, faced U.S. hostility from the git go). Perhaps these countries would be in even worse shape – I don’t know. But you can’t simply wash you hands and say Cuba’s plight is all Castro’s fault, when they have had face the wrath of the world’s wealthiest country for almost 50 years.

51

Not to mention my fellow citizens. It still doesn’t excuse Castro’s actions. We have a saying in my country “mal de muchos, consuelo de tontos”, roughly translated it means “the disgrace of many is the consolation of the fools”.

I have news for you, for everything that the US has done to mess up our countries our own politicians have done ten times more. There is not excuse for the corruption, ineptitude and sheer cluelessness of our politicians. This I say with utter shame.

52

It appears it’s all really going to hit the fan today, Saturday.

Doesn’t appear those who want Chavez out of power are willing to wait until August. And, just as a massacre in April prompted the coup, Friday’s shooting has people even further enraged toward their president.

I would not be surprised if Chavez resigned today. More likely, however, is that both sides will agree to return to OAS-led mediation, which will likely lead to the courts setting an earlier referendum date.

Hope that placates those ready to riot and hurt other people.

53

I have called Chumpski’s naive before but now is your turn:
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0412-08.htm

My opinion is that the opposition also does not want the facts to come out.
I think both sides shoot at each other and the big Venezuelan media is lying when it omits the full picture.

54

Wha-?

We wouldn’t have known what Chile would have been like under Allende? Yes we do! He was in power for three years!

There would have been legislative deadlock. There would have been massive inflation. There would have been massive strikes and business shutdowns. In other words, it would have looked like Venezuela right now.

We know this because this is what Chile looked like during Allende’s three years in power. Now…to be fair, the economic problems were not nearly his fault. They had been building for some time during the previous center-right administrations. However, the legislative deadlock and social unrest was almost certainly Allende’s fault as he refused to compromise or work together with the opposition.

55

Mmm Neurotik? You are not justifying Pinochet are you?

But, this actually is more evidence that my assessment of what will be the future result of a coup in Venezuela will be, a violent death not only to the ruler, but also anyone who still support him: about 30% of the population. :frowning:

56

Not at all justifying Pinochet. Just saying that we DO know what Chile would have been like under Allende, and it wasn’t pretty.

But they would have come out of it OK, eventually, IMHO, because it would have become politically necessary to work together to solve the crisis.

57

Does that cite count as objective report? If so I can find 10 cites to prove that Elvis is alive, probably living in West Palm Beach.

I know the media is not being objective either, I have access to two Venezuelan channels, they do sound like Anti-Chavez News Network, that is not to say that the link you provide is anything but objective itself.

Having said that, I insist that Chavez is bad news for Venezuela. Yes, he was elected democratically, but as history has proven time and time again the people do not always vote for the best (sometimes because there have two chose betwen two evils). Hopefully he will be outed in a way that will not lead to Venezuela’s embarrassment in front of the rest of the free world. Venezuela is too much of an icon of democracy for the rest of Latin America. Our country, for example, has an eternal debt with President Romulo Bethancourt.

58

GIGObuster, those things are true. There were three parties involved in the shooting, the city police, Chavez supporters, and snipers from buildings above. Is the opposition march involved in the shooting? I think not. That march (I was there) was pacific. It involved men, women, children, and all we carried were flags, whistles, and posters.

It is true. But still, what can you tell of a government whose counciler of the Municipio Libertador, Richard Peñalver, was involved shooting a crowd of people? He was caught on cameras.

This is something that I don’t believe, because that information comes from the government. They can say whatever they want and they have done it before.

To give you ONE example:
Monday December 2nd 2002.
Jose Vicente Rangel (the now vicepresident) speaks to the people saying: “El paro ha sido un fracaso” (the strike has been a failure). How can he say that? look how we are today. He has always been the “everything’s normal” guy. He lives in another world.

59

The reason why I believe more on that report and others is that they were right on the money on the fact that Chavez had not resigned. This became obvious after the coup failure; all reports on the media saying he had resigned were false. Sadly I see that many people are being manipulated to follow the designs of others that will do even worse repression if they take power.

Take this ominous example: Many Iranians did not know that their peaceful demonstration against the elected premier in the 50’s was controlled by the west. When the demonstration reached the palace, violence occurred and then the Sha took power.

60

Oh yeah. Like you have any credibility around here. So you are telling me the Cuban exodus is not true? No Cubans in Florida? No Cubans in Spain? No Cubans risking their lives attempting to leave the island? And everything in Cuba is hunky dory? Ok, gotcha.

BTW, you call me a liar. I have been to Cuba, I have seen those things I have photos to prove it. You can ask anyone who has been there and you will get the same story. Why would we all lie? What interest do I and all other tourists who have gone there have in lying? And why have you not gone there yourself to check it out?

The entire world knows Cuba is a police state with no freedom. As I said, your universe and the reality the rest of us live in are not connected in any way.