What you talkin’ about Willis?
Telling someone the truth is not gaslighting.
I don’t think the victim of gaslighting has to be unaware that it’s happening. Obviously for it to be completely successful, that helps, but if gaslighting is a thing that someone does or attempts to do to someone else, then whether it works or not, whether it is discovered or suspected, or not, is not really part of the definition of what it is
Well, I assume none of us has been to @F.U.Shakespeare ‘s home or looked under any beds there, so….?
As for “gaslighting” being used against an opponent who is citing non-facts….that’s surely arguable.
For example, if Person A posts “We should all support Donald Trump because the Pope endorsed his election in 2016,” it’s possible that Person A really does believe that the Pope endorsed Trump. But it’s ALSO quite possible that Person A knows perfectly well this isn’t true, but has found this argument to be effective in successfully manipulating opinion in the direction A wishes.
The second seems at least “gaslighting”-adjacent. The element of manipulation is present.
As cluttered as my house is, I wouldn’t rule it out.
I don’t see how that’s other than just lying (if the person knows the Pope did no such thing.) If it’s gaslighting, or gaslight-adjacent, could you provide an example of a mere lie that’s NOT gaslighting?
Most definitions I’ve found say something on the order of “manipulating someone into questioning their own sanity or ability to reason.” This is how the term used to be used, after the movie. Now it seems to be much broader. If people want to use it to mean “lying,” OK, but is there a special nuance I’m missing, where there’s the gaslighting type of lie versus the regular kind?
Those are excellent questions. I’ll have to think about the ‘example of a mere lie that’s NOT gaslighting’ as well as the ‘gaslighting type of lie versus the regular kind.’ Off the top of my head I’d point out “lies that protect the liar” (e.g. “I’m not the one who used the last of the milk”) as not being gaslighting, while “lies that persuade the lied-to person to do what the liar wants” (e.g. “you need to buy all-new clothes and shoes if you hope to get job interviews, no one will give you a chance otherwise”–said by a retailer) as coming closer to being gaslighting.
In neither of those examples is the lied-to person forced to believe that he or she might be crazy, of course. So I can understand those who object to using ‘gaslighting.’ It all depends on whether we allow the “manipulation must be present” interpretation, OR insist on “someone must question their own sanity” definition.
As for the way the term is used: maybe these days, lies intended to support one political view over another are more likely to be called ‘gaslighting.’ Right versus left or pro-authoritarian versus pro-democratic—these are battles fraught with emotion. Whether or not such a use of the term is legitimate, I’m not prepared to argue at the moment.
Sometimes a term is seized on to mean “whatever I think is bad”. Think of the modern use of “boomer”. Slang doesn’t have to be fair or rational or understandable outside a group. As long as your audience understands the usage it’s legit there, even if outsiders are baffled. Actually, that’s a feature, not a bug.
This is food for thought. The retailer is definitely manipulating the customer here, and might also lie more directly while manipulating, e.g. “This is a high-quality jacket” or “That color looks great on you.”
Among leftists of low intellectual wattage, “neoliberal” is the all-purpose snarl word. Though originally it must have meant something defined, by now they’ve ruined it by overuse. This isn’t gaslighting, of course; it’s just the fate of trendy words.
People often use the term ‘gaslighting’ because to refer to something that happened in the past, because at some point they realized they were being manipulated. That’s in keeping with the original idea. If you had an experience you realized in retrospect involved gaslighting, and you encounter a similar experience in the present, you might call it gaslighting even if it would be better technically to call it attempted gaslighting. That’s just ordinary sloppy language usage. I don’t think it’s particularly confusing.
“Fascist” is going through that process right now.
I mean, it’s great to hate fascists and fascism, and even neo-, crypto-, or quasi- versions of them. (Nobody my age can ever forget when Gore Vidal quite rightly called William F. Buckley a crypto-fascist and Buckley responded like a, um, well: “Listen to me you queer, stop calling me a crypto-Nazi or I’ll sock you in the goddamn face and you’ll stay plastered.”)
I protested against the use of fascist to describe Trump at the beginning, but it has emerged as the best defining word for his administration even if the classical meaning is - at least not yet - present. Over time, though, I wouldn’t be surprised if fascist turned into the meaningless left-wing counterpart of the now meaningless “woke”.
In Children of Men, the passphrase used to contact a corrupt cop was “Yer a fascist pig.”
I always think of gaslighting as being an intentional campaign to get someone to doubt their own perceptions.
My mother was once ranting as usual about what a terrible person I was, and I said to her, “You know, nobody else has this perception of me. I’m actually fairly well liked by other people.”
She said, “That’s because they don’t live with you. if they lived with you, they’d know how awful you are. I see the real you.”
That’s gaslighting.
I feel it diminishes the real harm caused by this kind of psychological abuse to use it as a catch-all for someone who just really disagrees with you.
On an individual familial level I agree w you.
OTOH …
The harm visited on 350M Americans by a professonally gaslighting RW Fascist regime exceeds the best efforts of WAG 3M wacky parents as a supernova is to a firecracker.
Sorry.
How did this phrase suddenly become so popular / overused/ misused? As far as I’m concerned, if you haven’t seen the movie, I don’t want to hear it. It’s pretty clear one doesn’t know it’s correct meaning when they use it as a synonym for lying.
AFAICT, “fascist” reached that point about 40 or 50 years ago. “Communist” or more commonly “commie” is the right-wing counterpart, and it reached that point about the same time, if not earlier.
Communist pops up from time to time; people are using it against Zohran Mamdani regularly. To my eye, however, the use dropped precipitously after the fall of the USSR.
Fascist got thrown around a lot from the 60s through Nixon’s time, but I think it also went away until recently. Admittedly, I don’t read a lot of right-wing sites and the skewing of the posters on the Dope is considerable. I do see plenty of quotes from notable people and they seem to prefer fascist right now.
Somebody asked Grok to compile quotes from Stephen Miller and Trump using the word fascist. There are dozens.
Depends.
There is an organized campaign by very powerful forces to lie to, mislead, and create insanity in, the vulnerable ~half of the US population. They’ve been at work for 20-30 years now and their efforts are now bearing massive fruit.
Those folks have been comprehensively gaslighted for 20-30 years. They now believe false nonsense and are prepared to believe whatever other false nonsense is trotted out tomorrow. If that’s not traditional movie-style gaslighting, nothing is.
Now we have the propaganda talking heads, and the people who unquestioningly believe that crap, spewing or repeating new garbage. Yes, it’s all lies meant to control. But it’s something far more extensive and coherent than mere untruth. And that’s what moves it into the category properly labeled gaslighting.
If you get some Nigerian spam promising great riches if you email them your banking information, No, that’s not gaslighting. That’s ordinary lying with intent to mislead.
But for the vast bulk of lying with political intent in the USA now, each bit of BS is but one tiny snippet within a vast and well-organized gaslighting effort. One bearing such voluminous poisonous fruit that the very survival of the USA is seriously in doubt under its relentless onslaught.
That is unquestionably gaslighting in the original sense of the term.
The concept of gaslighting, if not the term, got a significant publicity boost c. 2001 via the greengrocer subplot in Amélie.
As cliches are to be avoided, so should terms from pop psychology and sociology. I admit to violating these precepts myself, along with spelling and grammar, when I want to make a point in a hurry before the discussion moves on. Also abusing conventions against vulgarity; although, to paraphrase Eleanore Roosevelt, it’s better to light a fart than curse the darkness.