Well, I don’t know how to measure the real world, so I’ll withdraw any comments I made about it.
Here, though … yeah, I’m afraid that the people that agree with you outnumber the people that agree with me by a considerable margin. And a good number of those people, the ones that are active posters, are more intolerant of the right than the right-leaning posters are of the left. Perhaps it’s merely an accident of minority status, and if there were more right-leaning posters here, it would be the same.
But I’ve been here since 1999. I’ve argued against ideas many times, but I defy you to come up with stuff I’ve said that’s even CLOSE to the level of hatred and bile that’s been spewed at me.
People like looking at pretty people. Sarah Palin was a beauty queen. Add a bushel of energy, a dash of charisma and package a feel-good message in shiny smiles and there is your understanding right there, my friend.
I hesitate to post this because I like the fact that you are attempting to offer reasonable bases for people to support Obama. I agree that the board needs more political empathy. But, I have to say, this is a pretty comical attempt at framing why people would support Obama. Of the four things you name, one is not even an Obama position (immediate withdrawal), one is a veiled attack (people support him because he’s black), and one is hopelessly vague and irrelevant (new ideas). The only accurate reason is the taxation one, and even that one is framed in the least charitable possible way. To me, this post just reinforces the existence of a vast gulf in political empathy on this board.
Yes. I am bothered that, yet again, the banks, the rating companies and the consumers who ignored reality are being bailed out, while reasonable people take it in the gut. I am most disgusted by the fact that, even though many, many people, from all sides, had foreseen this, no one had a plan. They ignored it, and forced us into this position. What are they getting paid for again?
I do not believe McCain will spend, spend, spend. He’s said as much, and he has a voting record to back it up. And I love the idea of a budget freeze - I don’t think it’s a great idea, but wouldn’t that be a great “Fuck You” to the Man?
That’s a tricky one for me. My serious Bush negatives are his Jesus thing, and the bungling of the wars. I feel bad that he was thrust into this on 9/11, and while I understand the reasoning behind the decisions he’s made, I think some serious miscalculations were made. I always keep in mind, however, that “The Evil Bush Administration” was not acting alone - Congress, the UN, and many other entities were supporting many of those decision. I do not believe he is the only one responsible for it. And I do not believe he is ignorant - that is one of the many memes that drive me crazy. Overconfident, yes. But only someone who’s overconfident, on any side of the spectrum, would run for office.
As I said, I’m a little wary of a Palin presidency. Odds are on my side, however, and I trust her politics far more than Biden’s. So the Palin issue is a wash for me.
While I don’t have time to cite every single one, I will address those that are easiest to find.
I am not okay with Bush buying up banks. I think that is the most absurd knee-jerk reaction to a problem I have ever seen. I do find it amusing that you only point to the Bush administration for that bailout though. It was widely supported by his biggest opposition.
Obama has continually promoted socialization of medicine. He doesn’t deny that he wants socialized medicine. His stances stand similar on social security as well.
You are assuming that I am a McCain fan and a McCain supporter.
He and his colleagues are very restrictive on what can be done in nuclear industries.
Simple economics shows that when a corporation’s costs go up, price goes up. Is that hard to understand?
I would disagree with both of you, and say that I think she is in the minority here. The thing with these political threads, most Dopers don’t participate in them, and so who knows what their views are. There are just a few Dopers (and I’ll admit, myself included), who do participate and make a lot of noice one way or the other. But, you know, if you go into one of these election threads, you can pretty much guess ahead of time who’s going to be participating and what they’re going to say.
I have no dog in this fight (meaning, I am sick of talking at/with people and being talked down to etc), but I wanted to say that this is somewhat embarrassing–an Englishman is better informed than quite a bit of the electorate on this side of the Pond. Sad. (and not many, even here, could list 10 talking points on Gordon Brown or his opposition). That’s sad as well.
I only lurked very sporadically, so you are right, I’m not too familiar with how things have changed. But the thing that I find amazing about what it’s like now is how many people around here seem to have no contact with people who disagree with them. It’s weird.
The OP is just an unfortunate example of a tendency in American politics for liberals to denounce their enemies as idiots and conservatives to denounce theirs as immoral.
To be fair, a lot of us lost a quite a bit of respect for you when you went through your “I’m gonna vote for Obama… I can’t vote for Obama because not all of his voters behave as nicely as he does” tantrum.
I have no problem posting reasons to support Obama.
For me (I may be in a minority on this one…) the key point has been his commitment to a clean and honest campaign. Apart from one stumble (campaign finance / public funding) he’s done what he said he’d do, and it’s been very refreshing to watch.
His organizational skills – field work in fifty states – are unparalled for a presidential campaign.
His positions – not all ones I agree with, but very reasonable positions to take:
[ul]
[li] Health care reform – it’s easy to conclude that health care needs reform, and if you believe that health care is a human right, then it’s obvious the government should take a role in ensuring it’s available for all; Obama has a plan that will do this[/li][li]Iran, without preconditions – Obama is willing to lay down his cards first, so to speak, and have presidential-level discussions with Iran’s leadership in an effort to dissuade them from their troubling behavior. If you believe that’s the more fruitful approach, then Obama’s position should be the one to pick[/li][li]Stopping genocide in Darfur – Obama has spoken out against this and committed to enforcing sanctions to achieve peace[/li][li]Crack down on employers of illegal aliens and increase the number of legal immigration opportunities; also work with Mexico to assist home-grown economic development[/li][li]Expand Americorps; create a tax credit for such-and-so hours of public service for college students[/li][/ul]
All excellent reasons to vote for Obama, if they match your ideas of what we should be doing as a country.
It’s not a veiled attack. If you don’t believe that anyone has ever expressed the idea that ‘it is about time that we elected someone other than a white male’, I guess I can agree to disagree with you.
I did a Google search for “Obama new ideas”. Obama mentions that exact phrase on his website several times.
But again, if you think no one is voting for Obama based on vague promises of change, then Obama will be the first candidate in history to be elected to the White House based solely on clear and specific policy proposals.
Then in my opinion you need to alter your views. As mentioned, it is not necessary to buy the spin 100% to understand the underlying motivations.
It would be rather like objecting to a post detailing McCain’s views, but putting in a dig about his “temperament” at the end, as a sign that the other side lacked “empahty”.
In my opinion, a premature withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan would do the country more harm than good. Obama has stated that he will not cut and run in the Middle East. I am not convinced that I should believe him.
Obama has stated a preference for negotiating with anyone and everyone, with little or no preconditions. This makes me worry that he would repeat Neville Chamberlain’s mistakes.
I believe that, under the pretext of helping the poor, Obama is likely to hurt the business sector. Which will likely make the recession worse. On at least one occasion, Obama has expressed a desire to “spread the wealth around”, which makes me nervous.
Obama’s associations with Ayers, Wright, and ACORN lead me to believe that his knee-jerk sympathies are considerably to the left of mine.
Bricker, I wasn’t contending that no one was able to do so. I was contending that Shodan’s attempt demonstrates that lack of political empathy is a bipartisan malady.
Which is not the same was immediate withdrawal, or getting troops out “right now.”
The point of the exercise was to point to issues on which you think reasonable people can disagree. Do you think that reasonable people can vote for Obama because he’s black?
See above. Do you think reasonable people can vote for Obama on the basis of unspecified “new ideas”?
You don’t need to keep coming back for more when people sling shit on an internet message board. Yes, most of us you probably know in one manner or another from years of posting. But I wouldn’t expect a decrease in shit being flung this late in a historic race - however, sticking around and slinging back and forth will only entice more people to be disrespectful and bring up things from the past. Personally, I don’t care who you vote for as long as you vote. The way I see it - if you don’t vote and sling shit then you are standing on straw legs. If you vote, then you’ve got a say. So vote whoever you think will make the United States a better place in your opinion. :cough: Obama:cough:
1a) Fuck yes! Christ, I almost decided not to vote for the man because he supported this shit sandwich that we’re all going to have to eat, but then so did Obama, so it’s a wash there, and none of the third party candidates appeal to me.
1b) The orgy of spending is the absolute worst legacy of the Bush presidency. I’ve said before that Bush is the most “liberal” president in the last century in this regard. I do not believe that McCain would continue that, based upon his statements and his record. OTOH, Obama, with a Democratic Congress, will make Bush look positively parsimonious. I firmly believe that and dread the coming 4 years. I comfort myself with the memory of Jimmy Carter: He’s going to fuck up the economy so badly that he’ll never get reelected. We can survive four years of Obama, and then maybe we’ll be done with this socialism nonsense for another generation.
The Bush presidency, contrary to what we’re all told to believe, hasn’t been that bad. It hasn’t been what one might call good, but not really bad either. If he could have resisted his insane spending urges I would call it a success. He didn’t so it isn’t, but it’s no worse than neutral. The sad part for Bush (not that I give a rat’s ass about his legacy) is that the final judgment on his presidency is going to be determined by his successor. Fair or not, his presidency is inexplicably linked with Iraq. If we get a McCain who understands the necessity of staying the course and keeping a long term commitment in Iraq, 50 years from now he’ll be viewed positively. If we get an Obama looking for the first excuse to cut and run, we’ll likely fail and it’ll be laid on Bush’s doorstep.
WRT the OP, I have somewhat of the same feeling about Obama voters. I’m an issues voter, and based upon the issues, I don’t see how on earth anyone could want to vote for this man. I like Obama the man. He seems intelligent, he’s handsome, articulate and well spoken. But when I look at what he proposes to do, what he will do with a friendly congress…man, that scares the shit out of me! Add that to what has been revealed to be a dearth of character and integrity and I fear we’re in for a rocky 4 years (It looks to me like he’s going to win. McCain could still change that, hell, I could tell him how to do it…but he seems unwilling or unable to do so).
No mention of McCains involvement with the Keating bunch…
If you truly believe McCain and his running mate will shepherd this country out of the recession and make this country more safe than - as an American - you have the right to think that. Of Course.
Personally, I don’t have any faith in McCain’s policies, his campaign has been frought with inconsistencies and honestly his foreign policy scares me. I would rather the country be kept safe the smart way, and not with nukes and bloody wars. McCain rides high on the john wayne guns blaz’in archetype…well, this country has already created hundred of Osama Bin Ladens…if McCain makes it in we can be sure to create hundreds more.
