C’mon, look outside. Who’d want to protest in this weather? I think the Spanish would have been daunted by this week’s weather, and it’s hardly the worst that the Windy City has to offer. And Americans don’t exactly have the most free time in the world…
Well, you shouldn’t be. Because Zapatero has made it very clear he’ll open communications/colaboration with a number of Western democracies that Aznar had blatantly ignored as of late to our own peril. That should make you happy – unless of course, you don’t think the countries that constitute ‘Old Europe’ are “Western democracies.”
In which case, we have little else to talk about.
I would; I’ve done it in far worse weather. Last winter, before the war started I froze my butt off at the big demonstration in Rogers Park. But only a few thousand other people did. Compared to NY and SF, who got hundreds of thousands, Chicago was a drop in the bucket. Why is that? NY isn’t exactly balmy, either, so that’s not the whole answer. And there were huge turnouts in plenty of colder places: Canada and Scandinavia spring to mind.
It’s above freezing today, for chrissakes! We Chicagoans are supposed to be tough! If people can camp out for concert tickets, why can’t they put up with some minor discomfort for something they believe in? Is this country really that apathetic or complacent?
Zapatero has said he will focus his policies again on Europe and not the USA and this seems the reasonable thing to do unless Spain would be admitted to the Union with full voting rights. Spain’s place is in Europe.
The Aznar government was blocking the process of adoption of a European Constitution and Zapatero has said he will make it one of his priorities to get the European Constitution enacted. I am not sure what this means because it came down to a disagreement on how the votes were to be distributed. I do not know if Zapatero’s message can be interpreted as being ready to capitulate and accept what the other members were proposing because the positions were quite adamant on both sides.
In any case, the notion that Spain will go soft on terrorism is plain silly and can only be made by those who are very ignorant of Spanish reality. Unfortunately there are plenty of American politicians shooting off their mouths when they should know better. Surprisingly, GWB has been discreet and not put his foot in his mouth yet AFAIK. i suspect he has been advised to keep quiet and not make things worse. By airing the withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq they would paint Zapatero into a corner where he would have no other option but do it but if the matter is let to lie low then maybe the troops can stay. If that is what the White House is doing then it seems they might not be as clumsy as their usual standard. just a few days ago Lybia protested because after an agreement with the USA the American governmet presented it as a victory for the USA and a humiliation for Lybia. :rolleyes: It really makes you wonder how stupid they can be. I am sure after seeing this Zapatero will be thinking “yeah, great, I’ll say the troops will stay in Iraq so that Bush can call it a victory and leave me looking like a chump here”.
[bump]
More evidence that at least some Americans intend to take action to protest current U.S. policy toward Iraq, from another e-mail list I’m on:
“March 20th is the International Day of Protest for Peace
- City-Wide Peace event March 20th 10:30 pm
- City-Wide Peace March and Rally 12:00 and 1:30
- Neighborhood Peace event March 20th 4pm
Below are your invitations to participate in the two March 20th main city-wide peace events as well as
our own small neighborhood peace group event. Please see below for details.
As part of the
March 20th Global Day of Protest for Peace:
The neighborhood peace and justice group
Beyond Today
Invites you to a
Neighborhood Vigil for Peace and Justice
Saturday, March 20th 4:00 – 5:00 pm
Welles Park
At the corner of Western and Montrose
CTA Brown Line: Western stop, 3 blocks south.
This will be a peaceful, family-friendly event.
Please visit Http://www.BeyondToday.com
or email BeyondToday@BeyondToday
for more information.
March 20th City-Wide Peace Events:
We also invite you to meet at 9:40 at the CTA Brown Line Western stop to take the train downtown to attend the following city-wide peace events:
March 20 10:30 AM
Faith, Labor, and Community Still Say No to War!
A family-friendly rally for peace on the one-year anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq!
Chicago Methodist Temple, 77 W Washington, 312-427-2533
events@peacechicago.org, http://www.peacechicago.org
March 20 12:00 Noon
Michigan and Pearson
Midwest Still Says No to War – Huge Rally and march
● March step-off from Michigan & Pearson, one block north of Chicago Ave.
Rally at Federal Plaza - 1:30 PM
● Dearborn and Adams, Chicago
http://www.chicagoantiwar.org
For a printer-friendly flyer, click here for RTF
Next meeting is TENTATIVELY set for Thursday, April 1st, 2004
6:30 Non-violence study group
7:30 Main meeting. On the agenda:
Report on M20 activities
Report on the Primary Election
Discuss website changes
Other upcoming events
new ideas welcome
Location: Ravenswood Fellowship United Methodist Church, 4511 N Hermitage (Sunnyside & Hermitage)
Check out the Beyond Today Election Guide
Saturday, January 24th, Beyond Today organized a vigil to reconfirm our determination that our tax money be spent, not on war, but on basic services such as homelessness prevention programs. Here is the link for more information, including photos and links to media coverage. “
…although who knows why I’m bothering, as apparently there is nothing will convince the OP that all Americans are not marching in lockstep behind our Fearless Liar.
I trust Starving has an informed view of Alde by now …
Eva,
Some of it is laziness. We have busy lives now and we feel that our presence at a protest rally is of very little usefulness. As you’ve pointed out it does nothing to influence the view of the administration, and I think that it does little help the cause of unseating Bush in the election to come. It may even be counter-productive by pushing parts of “the middle” towards Bush in response to percieved radical leftist elements that apparently must support Kerry.
Many of us believe that Bush knowingly lied and that he has been foolhardy at most generous. By rushing in where there was no pressing need to rush, by proceeding before he had the full UN behind him as he could have managed with some patience and diplomacy, by being so shortsighted as to think that he could get prance around in a flight suit and declare that we have achieved our objectives, when the long bleed was just beginning, he has needlessly helped cast the US as an imperial wannabe and put our men and women’s lives in harm’s way for a long foreseeable future for inadequate cause. We will protest with our vote and by advocating for Kerry one on one in the proverbial public square. But we will never reward terror. I don’t see the mystery being why we don’t engage in mass protest more but why elements in Europe do it so much. Those French farmers for example! Whoo boy.
Anyway. If the intent of the Spanish bombing was to punish Spain for support of the effort and to make an example of them, then the Spanish electorate response has rewarded terror. If the protests were over Bush’s lies then they should have been out on the street before the bombing, not after. Terror can work if you let it.
Spain has been out in the street against the invasion of Irak by the millions. The Spanish people have reafirmed now what they have been saying all along, they have not changed their minds.
To try to blame anything about the current situation in Spain is silly. The current mess was made by the USA who said it was ready to go at it alone. After some arm twisting the government of Spain agreed to pretend like it agreed and now the truth has come out. The blame is not on Spain. The blame is on the USA for not having put together a willing coalition but rather a few forced “allies”. It is a consequence of US policies.
So you’re saying I won’t see you there in Welles Park, then? 
If Kerry’s a radical leftist, then I’m a hippopotamus.
I still cannot grasp how reaffirming a position you have held all along equates to rewarding terror, nor can I grasp why Americans seem to have lost the will to show its opinions publicly. I know people are busy with jobs, kids, etc., but I also know plenty of people who demonstrate at lunchtime or after work, and more than a few who bring their kids to demonstrations to show them what a participatory democracy is all about.
It was actually really nice to run into all sorts of family friends and former colleagues I hadn’t seen in ages at demonstrations; it reaffirmed that there is still a set of people out there who share my ideals.
To EvaL…
Although who knows why I am bothering, as apparently you simply don’t make the effort to
- read my OP.
- read my posts following.
Because if you ever did, then I don’t see how you came to post the above. Or is it because my English is not clear enough to be understood?
Salaam. A
And as addition to the last post by Sailor, on which I completely agree, some other remark to make considering the poster who made allusion that the people in Spain “wouldn’t have marched under certain - by him vaguely describe - weather conditions”.
I could say: Read my OP.
But since people don’t read it I shall repeat:
They marched [/in the pouring rain** for hours.
I don’t know it if rained that heavily all over Spain that day/evening/night, yet the reports I saw showed a sea of umbrellas under a pouring rain and a sea of soaked people in the pouring rain = thousands marching without even any umbrella to protect them against that pouring rain.
If someone else has denigrating remarks on the Spanish people and plans to post them in this thread: May I suggest you use one of the other threads that were especially created to post stupid coward insulting remarks on Spain and the Spanish people = Keep your cowardly uniformed filthyness overthere and out of here. Thank you.
Salaam. A
It has nothing whatsoever to do with your English, nor my purported unwillingness and/or inability to read your posts. I understand you just fine; I just think you’re being obstinate.
A short recap, for anyone not paying attention:
You asked why Americans are not out demonstrating in huge numbers over the current Administration’s policy toward Iraq, and more specifically the lies of Bush, et al. in interpreting and/or presenting intelligence data.
Several people rebutted your erroneous assumption that Americans are not demonstrating, provided additional clarifications regarding what other political action we are taking, explained why more people are not demonstrating than is already the case, etc.
You continue to be oblivious to contrary evidence and additional clarifications.
Why do you question the same lack of willingness as I do, yet seem to be convinced that it is absolutely OK for you to do so while you attack me for doing exactly the same?
Can you please explain this illogical hypocrisy to me?
Or do I have to conclude that US’ers can’t take any question, remark or criticizen coming from outside the USA because they are the Super Humans and on an other Super Being is allowed to question/criticze/make remarks on and about the Super Beings?
Thank you so much for reading this. I know I should be kneeling down, but since we are in cyberspace, I shall consider the option to use only one finger to type whenever I address myself to you in order to let you enjoy a feeling of superiority.
Salaam. A
Eva L,
You are completely wrong. You obviously only read what you like to read.
Salaam. A
You know, if you’re going to single out an American to accuse of insensitivity to world opinion, and especially to Spanish opinion, you picked the wrong one if you picked me. I have studied in Spain, and speak Spanish fluently to the point that I have been a professional court interpreter. I have spent my entire career assisting immigrants in various professional capacities. I have lived in Russia, have an advanced degree in area studies, and speak Russian almost as fluently as I speak Spanish.
I study foreign languages and cultures for fun. No foreigner I have ever known or even spoken to in real life has accused me of being condescending toward non-Americans, and there are a number of real, live European people on this board who have met me and/or spoken to me in real life and will back me up on that.
As for my questioning the willingness of Americans to participate in foreign affairs rather than letting Bush & Co. speak for them, well, perhaps you are incapable of comprehending that there are different degrees and types of political participation. Perhaps you are also incapable of comprehending that there are different types of Americans with different **kinds ** of opinions and different levels of commitment to political participation.
If you’re going to accuse anyone around here of insensitivity to the political opinions and aspirations of others of different backgrounds than themselves, well, look in the mirror. I seriously think you just like picking fights. And the sad part is that a lot of the time, I otherwise agree with you. You just generalize too damn much.
**Aldebaran
[/Quote]
I think you misunderstand. What Eva seems to be objecting to is your obstinate refusal to a) acknowledge the response we have proposed to your question and b) to answer a single question posed to you. This suggests, as I’ve said previously, that your question about the lack of demonstrations in the US is not a sincere request for information at all, but a rant. If you want to rant, you have every right to, but GD is not for rants; also, much bandwidth would be saved if you posed your rants as statements and not questions.
You have posed your question about demonstrations in the US at least seven times in this thread. We have answered you again and again, and asked you to clarify what sort of answer you are looking for, yet all you can reply is “wrong”, followed by a personal insult.
You might save everyone time and bandwidth if you would tell us what sort of answer you would find acceptable, then we can just decide whether we agree with it or not. Or you could just claim victory for yourself and go away. Either option is equivalent, IMO.
I’m sorry, but you were the one who posted uneccessary remarks that are a proof that you didn’t bother to read my posts on this particular thread.
If I ask a question, and you post after your remarks to me exactly the same question, be it worded differently, what should my conclusion be, in your opinion?
- I already thanked those who came up with information, which included you.
- I also said that my OP and its question about the lack of visible movement in the US is inspired by the impressive demonstration of political involvement and willingness to make their opinion heard by the Spanish people.
If in your opinion you can question why there isn’t the same willingness visible among a vast majority of the US people, that others can say there isn’t such a willingness while I can’t do the same - in the form of a question- what is your defence for such an attitude?
Salaam. A
EL K.
Would you mind to read my last post. Thank you.
And I already said that I don’t mind people claiming they read my mind in some sort of cristal ball… I only find them delusional about their skills.
Salaam.
**Aldebaran, ** if you think some of us are being defensive, it would help if you clarified your position on the following:
- Whom are you addressing in post #94?
In return, I will clarify why you are annoying me to death: you weren’t talking about how “the vast majority” of Americans had not come out to demonstrate. You continually use the word “Americans” when you should be saying “some Americans” or even “the majority of Americans.” I will grant you that too many Americans are politically apathetic. However, you keep talking about “Americans” like we are some gigantic, monolithic herd of sheep. We are not.
I, personally, get really pissed off when people equate me and my friends and loved ones with George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld, just as you would probably get pissed off at people who talk about “Arab terrorists” as if all Arabs are terrorists, or that Arab = Muslim = fundamentalist wacko.
Sometimes the fact that the question is worded differently is very, very important. You should be able to grasp that regardless of your English writing abilities, if you’d only pay attention. It doesn’t take perfect English grammar to get a clue.
OK, I’ve read it. Now, once again, what sort of answer to your original question about the lack of demonstrations in the USA are you looking for? See, I’m not trying to read your mind at all; I’m asking what, if anything, is in it.
For good measure before I go out and get a life on a gray and dreary Friday evening, another e-mail message from a list I subscribe to:
"For days now a pliant and obedient media has been pumping out stories about our March 20th demonstration plans with the sole intent of SCARING people from participating. These stories have slandered last years march and raised the specter of “violence” at this years march.
Let’s remember last years march. The people in their cars, the waves and honks, handshakes and high fives from people who had been stuck in traffic? Remember the smiles as we poured by unescorted, unpermitted, undeterred? What kept our march safe for everyone involved was our unity and determination to have our voices heard over the drum beats of war and repression.
We were right last year, the lies have been exposed! They’ve done everything in their power to divide and splinter the anti-war movement. Direct repression, subpoenas, arrests, detainments and fear-mongering.
NOW MORE THEN EVER OUR VOICES MUST BE HEARD!
Can we let the government decide when and where our voices can be heard or must we let our conscience decide? Only by building a strong movement to take on the entire agenda of the war on the world and the domestic repression that goes hand in hand with it, can we hope to effectively grind this Juggernaut to a stop!
Do not let our friends neighbors and co-workers be intimidated from joining our march. Forward this e-mail everywhere. Let everyone know you intend to be there on March 20th.
The World Still Say’s No To War
Chicago
Refuse & Resist!
Saturday, March 20 2004
12 Noon: March Step-Off from Michigan and Pearson, one block north of Chicago Ave.
1:30 PM: Rally at Federal Plaza, Adams and Dearborn
NO WAR! NO POLICE STATE! ANOTHER WORLD IS POSSIBLE! WE WILL REFUSE AND RESIST!"
Is the tone of this one acceptable to you, oh Mr. OP?