I think the vast majority of people on this planet have NO IDEA how bad war can actually be, not only as far as casualties and deaths but what soldiers go through. “The Things They Carry” is an excellent book that really hits home on some of those things.
Everyone has a good idea, we can all name some pretty horrific things that happen, but we still have no idea.
It’s like being told not to touch fire because it will burn you. You see fire, you know it will burn you because you’ve been told by people who love you and you truth, you’ve seen it burn others, but you don’t really KNOW it burns until you’ve been burned. That sudden instantaneous grasp of understanding; of lucid, naked knowledge as you pull your hand away afterwards and feeling the shock and pain and now knowing first hand it’s true, and that it’s much more terrible than anything anyone has ever told you, that’s what I think war is.
But since I’ve never a soldier, I don’t really KNOW. And, God willing, I never will.
This is incredibly stupid as well as being offensive.
If I were a guerilla fighter, and was forced against a wall and told to make a pledge at gunpoint by my hated enemy, do you think that I honor that pledge???
That relates to my whole disgust with the reports in the first place. Call me sappy, call me what you will, but there are some of us that do have a certain measure of respect for the “sanctity of human life and such things”.
Murdering en masse wouldn’t help us at all. Committing illegal acts–even in a war–don’t hold steam.
Tripler
It would just rebound in our face, with more frequent incidents like those of Somalia.
Do you folks remember the “highway of death” during the first Gulf War, Iraqi soldiers burned alive in vehicles, totally decimated on the road leaving kuwait? If you weren’t horrified by that, and you’re horrified but some cut throats, you’re simply full of shit. Get over it, this is war, people get killed and it aint pretty. War is uncivilized, it’s barbaric because it’s about killing people, combatants and non-combatants alike, people that you don’t even know, people that never did anything to you.
Ahhh… reminds me of the classic tautology which came out of Vietnam…
“Sir, in order to save the village we had to destroy it first…”
So Tristan the only thing which is simple in all of this, sadly, is your suggestion. The reality is that the shitstorm that is the Middle East is 80 years or more opportunist exploitation by Western powers who were quite happy to maintain the status quo by propping up inordinantly unfair and undemocratic governments. All of us in the West are guilty by association on this. We’ve been happy to let the common citizenry of the Middle East slip further and further into poverty and illiteracy and despair as we played our power games and propped up nasty little folks because it suited us at the time.
Now, in 2003, those citizens are sufficiently empowered that they’re calling in their markers, and all of us in the West are in their sights.
The solution is anything but simple. It’ll take at least 20 years to undo the generational hatred which has come into being these past 20 years or so.
Shoot them all? You foolish man… you foolish, foolish man…
That’s great. Saddam was able to control them with fear so that’s what the US should do. You really are a special kind of fucker aren’t you?
When people have started threads here about nasty things that happened to Iraqi civilians they were told war is hell etc. Yes it is. When you invade someone’s country don’t expect to be welcomed by all. When you have angered a section of that country by Shock and Awe tactics, heavy handed security policies and pure ignorance of the local traditions you should expect these kind of incidents. Soldiers get killed in war. If you don’t want soldiers killed don’t go to war.
Yeah right of course it does. I don’t know what your religion is but you name a religion and see how long it takes for somebody to find some bastard from that religion doing horrible shit to people. You feel the same way about Christianity and Judaism I suppose? Also how do you know they were strict Muslims? Iraq was a secular state. These people most likely killed the troops due to anger and the occupation rather than religious reasons.
-Actually, in my opinion, yes, to an extent, it’s the religion. Perhaps a large extent.
Here in the US, if we have a sort of guerilla making hit-and-run strikes (IE, John Malvo) every man-jack out there is hunting for his ass. Every cop is looking for him, every civvie is looking. The minute he’s found, cell phone calls are made, roads are blocked- by civillians- and he’s caught.
In Iraq- and other ME locales- the guerillas are hidden, clothed, supplied, fed and informed by those same civillians. The average Iraqui may not like the death and destruction the terrs are heaping on their own city, but that Iraqui also knows that if he speaks out against them, at best an imam (Muslim holy man/priest) will denounce him as a traitor to his faith.
At worst he’s pronounced a blasphemer, and he and his family are murdered in the name of honor and Allah.
That same faith drives the average, doesn’t-want-to-be-involved Iraqui to, say, keep quiet, even though he knows where they’re hiding another roadside bomb. Or when he sees a few terrorists, excuse me, freedom fighters, running to set up a few RPGs on the next supply convoy.
Speaking out against his Islamic Brothers is, of course, an Affront To God, it will hurt their Holy Mission, don’t you know.
That, in my opinion, is the real key. Sure, 75% of Iraquis polled say they like the Americans, and probably well over 95% won’t lift a finger directly against them, but a big chunk of that percentage also won’t “rat out” those they consider “freedom fighters”.
And yes, it’s largely Religious- we are the Great Satan, after all, heathens and blasphemers all. Even if we ARE doing good works, because we’re ‘heathens’, their Holy Book calls for our deaths. Therefore even while we’re delivering food, fuel, clothes and medicine, a “successful” sneak attack on a group of Americans (or British) is considered a Good Thing.
Good fucking grief Brutus. No WMDs, no Al Qaeda connections, and now no “liberation”. So what, by your thinking, was the point of the fucking war in the first place?
Doc Nickel, keeping quiet about terrorists in one’s midst was very common in Christian Ireland, too.
Doc Nickel - Has it occurred to you that those who are aiding and abetting the guerillas may be doing so because the US invaded their country? Could this perhaps be the main reason for their silence and support, rather than their religion?
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How would supporting US troops make an Iraqi a traitor to his faith? What does religion have to do with it? We invaded their country and they’re fighting back
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Says who? And what Holy Mission are you referring to?
Here, I think, is the most telling part of your post. You apparently believe that Muslims are called upon to kill all “infidels”, but this tired old chestnut has been debated and debunked many, many times on these boards. You obviously have a very low opinion of Muslims and Islam, but it might surprise you to learn that they aren’t all bloodthirsty fanatics…
You bring up something I’ve thought about a lot.
I’m a VERY liberal, anti-war Bush/Republican hater (flame me!)
BUT if another country invaded and deposed him and his regime, I would be the first to support the American insurgents.
Good point. I think alot of the hostility twards the US/UK troops is because they are seen as invaders, not liberators. It’s not about the religion, but more about kicking the invaders out of your country and making them pay for the deaths of the thousands of civilians who died in the bombings.
Maybe we’re not looking at this situation just right.
Can ANYONE here recall an instance within our own borders where a gun-toting authority figure has been killed? Certainly dragging a driver out of his vehicle and gleefully brutalizing him in the street (“brick to the head” stir up any memories?) would never happen here…
Would this same story be news if a couple cops got dragged from their shot-up cruiser in LA? Chicago? NY? St. Louis? Probably not–just another brutal crime scene, but no political implications (that would ever be addressed).
Teens will be teens. Give them some generalized anarchy on top of it and let’s all just wonder why this isn’t happening more often in Iraq and elsewhere to any authority figure. Let’s not take this so personally. Think this same bunch wouldn’t act the same way towards Saddam’s henchmen if any amount of government restraint could be expected? You BET they would.
Still. Sucks it had to be our guys dyin’ like that. BTW, I am too young to remember–were individual deaths publicized like this during Viet Nam & Korean conflicts? If not, I wonder why they would be now? Let’s think about why this story is being spun in this way when it comes from an arena that has already been shown to have very tight controls on what info passes in & out. This whole thing reminds me of the trick you play on the dog where you tease him with the toy with one hand and then tap him on the back with the other–WHERE’S THE OTHER HAND PEOPLE!
Ah. I see. Now I understand why, just the other day, I put on one black and one navy blue sock. It’s because my step-uncle and step-cousins are Jewish.
Their Jewry must be spreading! And it must be stopped!
