War in Iraq to leave Saudi Arabia?

This might go better in GQ, but let’s face it: EVERYTHING about this war’ll turn into a debate. More likely ranting than great, but a debate nonetheless.
This morning (Or, looking at the clock, yesterday, 6/19), I was sitting in a room with about a thousand other people while a professor of middle-east politics and history discussed his speciality at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis at the end of a one-week summer seminar. Since there ended up being about 10 people (including himself and myself) there who actually cared what he had to say, we got into a decent deal of discussion after the first twenty minutes. Since I figured him to be another right-wing facist warmongerer* like most of the other speakers they had that week (all the professors were fairly moderate except the ones they had give speeches), I didn’t write down his name, and I was too timid to ask after I decided it was worthwhile, but I’m sure that you can contact them somewhere from the USNA’s website and ask. That’s the best I can do as a cite.
Anyway, there was a great deal of other things that were unbelivably enlightening, and some that made me ashamed of our last three presidents. You’ll never hear any of this stuff on the news, and it probably won’t be in history books for a long, long time. That’s a whole six or seven other threads, though, and I’ll deal with them when the spirit moves me without draining all the energy from my body. But there is one particular thing that really stuck in my mind.
He claimed that we were attacking Iraq so we could move troops from Saudi Arabia to Iraq. We’ve wanted to do that since we discovered in '95 that AQ bombed the World Trade Center in '93, and we just needed something that would scare Americans shitless so that the president could do anything they wanted to there (I.E., 9/11). Saddam wasn’t a threat to anyone except Kuwait ever, so we needed to have soldiers nearby to talk him out of it. The prof. couldn’t answer why they weren’t in Kuwait itself, or why they retreated deeper into SA, away from it, after attacks on the troops by Saudi Guerellias, and he admitted that Hussein hadn’t done anything wrong in the past dozen years, and he had good reasons even then, but there are some matters of politics I don’t think anyone understands. My guess is that the government thinks we do need a solid base of operations in the middle east to hold troops, which I kind of agree with.
So now, in a roundabout way that I don’t think anyone out-of-the-know could have understood, we’ve dealt with the grievance of OBL. In his theory, this takes away Al-Quaeda’s problem with the US, the rest of the Arab world, especially Iran, is happy with us for going after the Taliban (the whole ME’s wanted to since the Taliban took over, but we held them back. They killed a few diplomats in a rather grisly manner), and once Israel-Palestine has a clue, the whole place’ll be enlightened given fifty to a hundred years.
Now this almost makes sense, in the crazy way of everything we do away from home works (Consistent Illogic defined), but America’s screwed up pretty well everything we’ve done there in the long run. There are those unanswered questions two paragraphs ago about how we got there in the first place, and whether or not this will work, but it seems reasonable enough to me.
However, there are hoardes of people here who are smarter than me and have more free time. Given the one piece of the puzzle nobody’d ever get, I need somebody to at least help me along in the gigantic “what the hell are we doing?” of it all. What will go wrong, what can, what are the chances this won’t come around and bite us in the ass ten years down the road… just give me a massive why and how.
And because I woke up 20 hours ago, goodnight.

*Of course, for the first twenty minutes, before he gave up on it, he insulted Clinton whenever he heard snoring. The resulting cheers were loud enough that the podium shook. About four hundred of the attendees were back to sleep within three minutes or less, and the cycle repeated once it became hard to hear him.

I find it funny that this expert seems to be unaware that in June or July, 2001 we began discussions with Saudi Arabia to remove our troops. In fact, we were going to do that regardless of our position in Iraq, and the WTC/Pentagon attacks merely pushed back our schedule so that we stayed longer. So why, if we had intended to pull out, before, did we need to attack Iraq, now?

Yes, it smacks of making the dots fit the lines if you know what I mean.

Ultimately, however, I would suggest that it would be no small piece of wisdom for the USA to keep a low profile for a few decades.

What we need is a country that wishes to willingly be the world’s cultural leader. We need a country which can take all the cheap shots and emnity which the USA has copped for the last 50 years. We need a fools own paradise who think this thankless job would be a cool thing.

I nominate the French. Those egotistical bastards would GLADLY accept the USA’s mantle - let 'em have it I say.

The concept is not far off the mark.

I posted a similar position before on this board.

When Kuwait was threatened by Saddam, the Saudi’s were offered a military solution by OBL. OBL was rejected in favor of a US backed coalition. Unfortunately, the war went a little too well and it was ended early due to excessive losses by Iraqi troops. That left Saddam in power. That, in turn, kept US troops in Saudi Arabia.

Interviews with OBL, prior to 9/11, showed he thought US troops in Saudi Arabia were defiling the holy land. US citizens were considered legitimate targets in his holy war. 9/11 was not the 1st attack by OBL. There was: The truck bombing of the WTC, Somalia, USS Cole, 3 embassies etc…

IMO, the removal of troops from Saudi Arabia is one of the objects of the war (if not the driving force). Qatar offered a ready-made base for US troops so it is a nice interim step for withdrawal from the region. The troops will stay in the region as long as Iraq remains politically unstable.

“My guess is that the government thinks we do need a solid base of operations in the middle east to hold troops, which I kind of agree with”

Why? Why do Americans take it for absolutely normal to have troops all over the globe where the greedy war mongering USA has strategical and econmical interests in order to stay the greedy warmongering USA?

You have no business there. You have only business in your own country.

Aldebaran.

So who’s business is it? And why weren’t they there to deal with it? Saddam was an evil dictator that stood unchallenged in the heart of the Mid-East. The Iraqi citizens weren’t capable of removing him. The Kurds tried, the Shites tried.

If the Iraqis were able to defeat Saddam in a civil war it would have been bloody. And after Saddam was removed there would have been the same religious power grab that occured but without a 3rd party to intervene. Another bloody war would have started up.

If you have a real solution, by all means, share it with us.

Boo Foo Foo:

Absolutely right on the money, Boo Foo Foo. I’m all for Chirac’s vision of at least a multipolar world order. Maybe then all the pissed off people of the world will blame somebody other than us for their plight, for a change. This hyperpower business isn’t as fun as it’s cracked up to be.

  1. There was an uprise in Iraq after the Gulf War. The USA has instigated that. The USA had promessed both Kurds and Shi’a to help and to give air support.
  2. The USA did that while they knew they were not allowed under their UN mandate to “free Kuwait” to make an attempt to change government in Iraq.
  3. Colin Powell stood by that UN mandate, thus the USA, knowing they wouldn’t lif a finger to help themn mislead those Kurdish and Shi’a men, ready to overthrow the Hussein clan.
  4. The USA thus stood by and watched this uprise they had instigated being put down in a bloodshed never seen. All these massgraves that come to the surface now… all those people murdered in retaliation by the Hussein clan… All of them are on the account of the USA and its cowardice to try to use and abuse those people for their own goal: overthrow Hussein. The same scenario as they put in place in Afghanistan against the Russian. But there, they were involved in training of the Mujaheddin/taliban (OBL) and in providing them for amunition.
  5. The they came up with 12 years of sanctions and vetod every attempt in the UN to lift them.
  6. This led to an incredible impoverishment of that country, once triving and economical succesful and highly educated and forseen of excellent healtcare.
  7. This led to the situation the Hussein got the country even much stronger in his grip.

I have a question for you: How do you think the opposition in Iraq, which always was present and which was organized, would have devellopped if the whole population didn’t have to watch children and relatives die of the most common diseases for which some ordinary medication wasn’t even available. And furhter had to worry day by day how to get food and how to survive?
Do you think you could bring up the energy to get yourself involved in political debates, let be in underground opposition with all the risks involved?

It is the USA and its installment of those criminal sanctions, and later its stubborn refusal to lift them, that is the cause the Iraqis didn’t overthrow Hussein themselves.

And by the way: I wasn’t talking only about Iraq. The USA has troops all over the globe where they see profit, be it geostrategical or be it directly economical.

Why do you think that is absolutely normal and where did you learn to think that? Would you welcom foreign troops on US soil because a certain count’y just comes to install them out of greed and power hunger? Would you say that is absolutely normal?
Aldebaran

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Aldebaran *
**1. There was an uprise in Iraq after the Gulf War. The USA has instigated that. The USA had promessed both Kurds and Shi’a to help and to give air support. **

Where was the US? We created and enforced the Northern and Southern no-fly zone while trying to keep the UN happy. I would agree the US should have said to hell with the UN 10 years ago and supported the uprising. However, Turkey would not support a Kurdish rebellion and the Saudi’s would not support an overthrow.

**
2. The USA did that while they knew they were not allowed under their UN mandate to “free Kuwait” to make an attempt to change government in Iraq.**

It was the general intent to drive into Bagdad the first time but it turned into a total bloodbath for the Iraqi soldiers. We ended the war early due to world opinion.

**
4. The USA thus stood by and watched this uprise they had instigated being put down in a bloodshed never seen. All these massgraves that come to the surface now… all those people murdered in retaliation by the Hussein clan… All of them are on the account of the USA and its cowardice to try to use and abuse those people for their own goal: overthrow Hussein. The same scenario as they put in place in Afghanistan against the Russian. But there, they were involved in training of the Mujaheddin/taliban (OBL) and in providing them for amunition.
**

If you want to use the word cowardice toward the USA then you also need to apply it to all the Muslims surrounding Iraq. I’m guessing there wasn’t any support for the Southern Shites because most of the surrounding countries are Sunni.

**
5. The they came up with 12 years of sanctions and vetod every attempt in the UN to lift them.
6. This led to an incredible impoverishment of that country, once triving and economical succesful and highly educated and forseen of excellent healtcare.
7. This led to the situation the Hussein got the country even much stronger in his grip.

I have a question for you: How do you think the opposition in Iraq, which always was present and which was organized, would have devellopped if the whole population didn’t have to watch children and relatives die of the most common diseases for which some ordinary medication wasn’t even available. And furhter had to worry day by day how to get food and how to survive?
Do you think you could bring up the energy to get yourself involved in political debates, let be in underground opposition with all the risks involved?**

There were warehouses full of medicine and 12 square miles of palaces. The money was there. The populace had access to guns.

**
And by the way: I wasn’t talking only about Iraq. The USA has troops all over the globe where they see profit, be it geostrategical or be it directly economical.

Why do you think that is absolutely normal and where did you learn to think that? Would you welcom foreign troops on US soil because a certain count’y just comes to install them out of greed and power hunger? Would you say that is absolutely normal?**

Normal, no. Necessary, usually. The United States has been used as the World’s police dog for 50 years. We had no vested interest in Kosovo yet you forget we went in and smashed a Christian nation on behalf of Muslims who were not even native to the land. They were Albanian Muslims who immigrated to Yugoslavia.

Bosnia was a mix of religious and cultural differences. Again, we sent troops in to stop a bloody civil war. The troops are still there. Should we withdraw the troops and let it regress back to a civil war? If that is the will of the people of the region then I would like to see my fellow countrymen return home.

And then there is Afghanistan. Another country we had no vested interest in. We only supplied the weapons and training for Bin Laden but it was still support.


Judging by your use of English, it is a 2nd language to you. This is a good thing. You can bring a point of view and a perspective that is helpful for discussion.

If you think Iraqis are better off with Saddam, versus a chance at democracy, then make your case.
You complained about men searching female Muslims. You have to be aware of the regulations regarding this. Female soldiers are used if available. Otherwise, men are instructed to use the back of the hand if necessary. If you look at the pictures, they mostly use metal detection wands.

I ask you again, what is your solution to the problem?

Actually, our business is wherever we make it. Keep in mind that prior to the 11th, this so-called “war-monger” president of ours actually wanted to reduce US military presence in the world.
Our people were and our fed the hell up with spending our hard earned tax revenue cleaning up other countries’ messes, only to see that the nanosecond we reduce our presence, the situations almost universally go back to hell.

Is US rule in these theatres unpleasant? You bet. Like jail, these situations are not meant to be fun. These problems are supposed to be corrected, but instead, there is the very real need to hold their collective hands all the way through, costing several valuable years of potential improvement.
The problem here is tribalism, not imperialism. If you look at countries like France & Germany, you will see nations that despite rcent disfavour with the US, very much have their acts together, as it were. And though it does not serve our interest at all times, the overall effect of not having to babysit them is a profit of its own for us.

When this happens in the ME, kosovo, etc… we will leave. Until then, we are needed, ugly picture or not.

On a side note, I have to admit it is frustrating to see that the world doesn’t know lucky it is that it is Uncle Sam playing policeman here.
The situation in Eastern Europe until the early nineties was no picnic under the Soviet Hegemony. Little if anything was ever done in/for the interest of the CCCP’s satalite nations, though a lot was done in Soviet interest at the time. Most often, the nations we visit get a lot more out of it than the US could ever hope to.

Cheers

Well, it didn’t help matters any when George Bush Sr. told them, “Rebel against Saddam, and the US will come in and help you overthrow him!” – and when they did, the US sat on its thumbs and watched them get massacred.

While I agree that G H W Bush deserves scorn for the way that he incited the people to rise up in a revolution he never intended to support, it is only fair to note (as all of his apologists have been at pains to point out) that he never made any actual claims that we would provide assistance. Certainly, with the U.S. military standing on the Iraqi border and the Iraqi army in shambles, it was a natural assumption that when he “suggested” that the Iraqis needed to cleanse themselves of Hussein, there was a clear implication that the U.S. would support the insurrection. However, when the insurrection began, Bush made no effort to actively support it. When he was challenged on his policies in later months, he noted (correctly, if a bit too literally) that he had never made ay such claim.