Was Brady Anderson out at third? (8/2/01)

OK, According to John Buren(sp?) of Channel 13 news, the rule states something to the effect of…

If a first or third base coach stops, slows or holds a runner on base by touching, that runner is out.
(I’ll try to look up the exact wording)

Now, the video shows the batter hitting a shot into shallow center field - a base hit. Brady, on second base rounds third at quite a clip. Maybe not full speed, but Brady didn’t “trot” into third. It looked as if he rounded third with the intention of looking towards home and deciding to make it or turn back (if I could read his mind.) The center fielder throws the ball to the catcher to cut this off before Brady even made it to third.

Here’s the tricky part. As Brady rounded third, he ran into the third base coach (recall he rounded third at a clip) and went back to third all of 6 feet away.

Then, the home plate umpire, and not the base umpire who was right there, called Brady out. There was no play at third, anyway. Not to mention that the third base coach did not hold him up in any way.

Did the ump screw this one up?

The base coaches cannot assist in any way. If Brady used Trebelhorn to stop his momentum then he was correctly called out. Also note the part ‘judgment of the umpire’.

Rule 7.09 (section I) in the major league rule book states it is interference by a batter or runner when, in the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base.

See http://majorleague.baseball.com for the exact wording.

As Trebelhorn said after the game, it was his fault; he should have gotten out of the way. I don’t thing Brady “used” him inasmuch as ran into him.

Granted I’m a bit biased here, as I think that dem Os had a chance of evening the score (later in the inning) taken away, but I’m still a bit perplexed. The rule seems to lean toward intention, which I dont’ think Anderson or Trebelhorn had. It was a tie-up, which could have proven more detrimental in that it slowed BA’s return to third.

The rule (as in basketball) is applied when a person’s or team’s actions give him or them an unfair advantage over another person or team. In this case, I don’t see where that was the case.

First, sorry about the link. It should be

Second, I’m not sure what you are asking here.

  1. Did Anderson and Trebelhorn touch each other?
    Answer: Apparently, although I haven’t seen the clip.

  2. Is there a rule against it?
    Answer: Yes, see Rule 7.09 (section i).

  3. Did the umpire apply the rule correctly?
    Answer: Yes. The rule states that the runner (Brady) is out.

  4. Did the umpire see it right?
    Answer: Well, the rule allows leeway for the umpire’s judgment, so I suppose that if the umpire saw interference, then he should call it.

  5. Should the umpire allow the spirit of the rule be used as opposed to the letter of the rule? (referencing your ‘intent’ query)
    Answer: This one can be debated. I suppose that the umpire could have ignored it. In my experience (fan, softball player, kids coach) is that you never touch the player while the ball is live as he can be called out.

P.S. The O’s are cooked this year. Play for 2002 (or 3 or 4).

Someone console Geobabe: Brady’s finally out! :o

And, yes, the call on the field was correct. Buck Schowalter explained as such on Baseball Tonight last night.

Obviously, the rules are subject to bending on occasion. If you’ll remember, in 1998, when Mark McGwire hit his 62nd home run, he missed first base, and the Cardinal’s first base coach, who was shaking Mac’s hand, pulled him back and pointed to the bag.

Technically, the coach shouldn’t have left the coaching box and stepped on the field, shouldn’t have touched McGwire as he rounded the bases and certainly shouldn’t have detained him, pointed to the base, and reminded him to touch it. According to the rule book, McGwire should have been called out.

Of course, under the circumstances, only a dickhead like Johnny Evers would have ruined such a historic moment by insisting on technicalities being observed to the letter, and I’m not saying the incident in the OP should be treated differently than it was, but I find it interesting that baseball is perfectly willing to turn a blind eye to certain rules in certain circumstances.

I don’t know about the ump, but I, for one would like to screw Brady Anderson up.

It was sort of sexy to see him getting mad on the field. :wink:

(I just wanted to voice that before Geobabe showed up)


I would think McGwire’s situation is a little different in that there’s no way to get him out anymore. The ball is deposited over the wall.

How would one possibly be called out on a home run? Has it ever happened that someone has refused to run the bases? What if you miss one? I guess this goes back to the previous question. Could you get McGwire out if he misses first on a home run?

Yes. If he missed first base and then tagged second (before going back and tagging first) he would be automatically out when he tagged second. Of course, he could go around and miss all bases and go back and tag them correctly - in the correct order- and still be “safe”.

Friday, I know dem Os are hopeless. I’d be happy if they finish the season at .500. However, I have to have something to blame their crappy playing on, so I’m gonna give it to the umpire. He’s hated the birds for years!

A couple of occurrences come to mind…

Robin Ventura hit a grand slam to win a playoff game last year (2 years ago?). He never reached second as the Mets tackled him in celebration. He was credited with a single.

This one my memory is a little hazy. someone had pitched a perfect game thru 12 innings, but the Braves finally got some runners in the 13th. Eddie Matthews hit a grand slam, but Hank Aaron passed another runner and was called out. Matthews was credited with a single (I think). It still won the game. This was in the 50’s.

The defense can appeal that runners missed bases on the next dead ball.

But this is not what happened in McGwire’s case. It was up to the umpires to call that. I think that they probably overlooked that one with reason. I think I remember McGwire saying he realized he missed it at the same time the coach reminded him. Not that the umps know that.

If McGwire circled the bases, but missed first, he could be called out. However, it is an appeal play. Before the next pitch, the pitcher would have to step off the rubber and throw to first base.

As for McGwire’s home run #62, it is still a judgment call and the umpire can choose not to make the call.

If a batter hits the ball over the fence and doesn’t want to run out the homer, he’s out. There are sections in the rule book dealing with what happens when batters refuse to do things, like accepting a base on balls or a hit batter. They aren’t optional. Presumably somebody in the 19th century tried to turn down a walk and that caused the rule to be put into effect.

The situation alluded to was Harvey Haddix’s imperfect game. He retired the first 36 Braves before Felix Mantilla reached first on an error. I believe Henry Aaron walked and then Joe Adcock hit an apparent home run. Mantilla crossed the plate, but Aaron held up, not thinking the ball had gone over the fence. Adcock passed him up. Since so Adcock only got credit for a single. Originally Aaron was allowed to cross the plate, but then the official scorer checked the rule and changed the score to 1-0 because on a hit other than a home run, the game ends once the winning run scores.

Robin Ventura’s “Grand slam” single came in the 1999 NLCS.

The most amazing thing about this thread is that somebody was watching a game between Baltimore and Tampa Bay.

Yeah, but part of my original point was that I believe McGwire coulda been called out because the first base coach breached the rules. Didn’t he? Or are the rules less stringent on a home run? And keep in mind, as already mentioned by others, that to pull a technicality out of your ass in a case like a record-breaking home run would be so bush-league a bush-leaguer wouldn’t even do it.

In any case, as I mentioned before, there are rules which are broken all the time and are not penalized, the two most often broken being the base coaches staying in their boxes (which they almost never do; Mookie Wilson gets right up behind the runner and whispers in his ear), and players of opposing teams fraternizing on the field. Just about every time a guy gets on base, you see him chatting with the fielder. But only a real anal-retentive umpire would cite a guy for that.

Brady should NOT have been called out because he should have been traded/released by now. He has THE lowest batting in the majors for 250+ at bats. (sigh) I bleed orange and black (and a little purple) but he just flat sucks.

Base coaches don’t have to be in their boxes all the time. They only have to stay in them if directed to by the umpire and the umpires usually don’t care unless the coach is being a complete ass.

That rule is in place because base coaches used to do things like pretend they were the third baseman so outfielders would throw to the base at the wrong time or look like they were running toward home in order to draw a throw. Also, guys like Arlie Latham, one of the first fulltime base coaches, was hired generally just to get on the case of the umpire and opposition. He did little in the way of coaching.

I think you can blame this on Earl Weaver. The umpires still haven’t forgotten him. :smiley:

BobT said:

Well, okay, I’ll give you that one. But McGwire’s coach was in the basepath, shaking his hand and pulling him back to step on first. I don’t think you can say that’s within the rules, even on a home run trot.

(Yeah, this is degenerating into a useless discussion that’s going to get bumped to MPSIMS if this keeps up. I just find it fascinating to think of the implications of strict enforcement of the rules in the case of Mac’s record-breaking home run.)

I suppose if before the game La Russa had come up to then Cub manager Jim Riggleman and said, “So Mr. Riggleman, strict rules of baseball today” then history would have been different.

Yeah, like they’d be measuring all the pine tar on every bat against the width of home plate.

Good one, Bob.