Was I in the wrong here? In re: getting carded.

Ok, I know that most people that reply to me will say that I was in the wrong, and that the people involved were just doing their jobs, but hear me out if you would.

This is fairly long.

I found no record of having posted this before, but here goes. Once upon a time, I went to an Uno’s (pizzeria, or whatever they call it now). I was there with a rather large group, about a dozen IIRC. The wait was long, so some people sat in the benches by the servers stand, and a few of us went into the bar.

The three of us that went into the bar were myself (23 or 24 at the time), and two of my friends, one a year older, one a year younger. There was one guy running the relatively small bar, he was busy, so waiting was not really an issue. The youngest guy ordered a beer, was served (sans ID check mind you) and he paid in cash. The oldest guy was served next, same thing. No ID check, here’s your beer, thanks for the tip.

I’m up next. I don’t look old, I don’t look young. Most people can peg my age fairly accurately. I was standing right with my friends that got their beers with no ID check.

I order a beer and the guy asks for ID. Fine. I’m used to getting carded, and it should be policy to do so. I show him my ID. he says “This is too faded, I can’t tell it’s you.” He leaves to service another patron, tacitly saying that I can’t have a beer. In the guys favor, this was the first year that Ohio came out with digitally printed Ids, they had not perfected it yet, and yes, my picture was not clear enough on it to stand up to scrutiny.

I finally got the guys attention again, and explained the situation. “I can’t help it if the DMV can’t make a driver’s license that can’t stand up to normal usage. What am I supposed to do? Get another license that does the same thing?”

He says “I can’t tell it’s you, so I can’t sell to you”.

I then got out all of the documents/IDs that I had in my wallet. I had a student ID from The Ohio State University, picture and social both on it. I had my original copy of my Social Security card (I know now that it was not a smart thing to have on my person). I even had my Federally-issued Selective Service Registration card, with my SSN on it as well. Did I mention that I even had a copy of my freaking birth certificate on me?

He still said he couldn’t serve me. I asked to speak with the manager. He came out, glanced at the assortment of documents I had laid out on the bar, and asked to see my ID. He said “We can’t serve you”. I asked why not. he said “We can’t prove that you are old enough to drink legally” I told him that, yes he could. I also asked him if calling for a manager would be an action taken by an underage drinker. He said that he didn’t serve underage drinkers. I asked him if he thought my ID was fraudulent, he just said that it was “inadequate”. I invited him to call the police if he thought I wasn’t being truthful. He said “I’m sorry, we can’t serve you” and left.

Well, the rest of us left as well. They got two beer sales, and nothing more. We went down the street to another restaurant. When the waitress asked for our drink orders, she asked for ID from two of the younger girls there. When she got to me, the other guys said “He just had a really bad experience less than a mile from here, don’t card him. He’s still a bit upset.”

She looked at me and said “That’s the look of someone that got mistreated, not the look of someone that didn’t get away with something.” Our dinner was fine. She was tipped heavily for her discretion.

What I failed to realize in the heat of the moment was that out of state IDs, Military, IDs, passports, and even State Ids are also legal forms of proof of age in most places. The bartender did his job for 1/3 of the people I saw served (he carded me and not my two friends). His refusal of that solitary piece of ID was justified to an extent. It still had the holograms and markings of an official drivers license, he had no reason to assume that it was counterfeit.

When I asked to speak with the manager, he made a choice. Rather than look at the corroborating Federal and State documents that I had, plus a University photo ID which was clearly me, he chose to back up his bartender.

My main problem is that all parties involved had zero doubt that I was of legal drinking age. Kids that try to sneak one past the barkeep, do NOT ask to speak with the manager, nor do they have bona-fide documents to back their case. The bartender carded me in an indiscriminate and inconsistent manner. The manager chose to back up his employee, rather than admit that I had proven my case.

They lost a 12 top, and at least a few customers for life.

So, was I upset for no good reason? Were they just doing their jobs? Or did they just take a position and stand by it, regardless of any evidence to the contrary?

I’d say you handled yourself quite well. The manager was clearly a fucking tool.

Assholes exist in the world. Not only did you run afoul with a few at that bar, they probably had problems in the past and you fit in with their preconceived attitudes. There was no way they would admit to being wrong again. You just ended up being the one they took it out on that night.

If that shit happened to me, I’d tell every single person I know that the restaurant was run by shitheads and to never go there.

Basically, I did that. I know that the manager on duty was at fault (at least partially IMO), and he represents the brand. Bad for business.

No. Yes. Yes.

I also believe they were fully justified. These are the kind of situations you get when police start running sting operations in order to entrap people just trying to do their job. Bartenders and security guards paranoid about getting stung by the police to the detriment of legitimate business.

Sorry you had to go through it, but unfortunately life is such that their highest priority these days has to be covering their ass. :mad:

You had a drivers license with a picture that was so faded that they couldn’t tell it was you, and a bunch of totally useless documentation? Right? C’mon - a school ID and a social security card? Those aren’t valid ID’s anywhere (except the school). You had your birth certificate? That’d sound like a police setup to me. Why didn’t you take your birth certificate down to the DMV and get a new license?
Do you think that the bartender or the manager cared about three sales in a busy bar when compared to a $2500 fine and 6 months in jail for committing a fourth degree felony, plus the possibility of the place losing their liquor license and losing far more money than your party was likely to spend? Your hurt feelings aren’t worth getting caught in a sting.

In response to “What am I supposed to do? Get another license that does the same thing?” The answer is “yes” of course. If you want to buy alcohol you had better do exactly that.

You don’t look old or young, but you look 23? That is “young”, I’m afraid. Many places around here card everyone that looks under 35, some card everyone.

Don’t go back, however - I’m certainly not saying that you should frequent establishments that treat you in a way that you dislike.

Snips all over the place, but no misrepresentations.

The driver’s licenses being issued by the state at that time could not stand up to being kept in a wallet. I hadn’t taken mine out more than a handful of times before my image was worn off. So, I go to the DMV, pay for a replacement license, and then encounter the same problem a month or two out. This is expected of me?

This wasn’t a case where my license in particular was faulty, they all were at that time. Getting a new one before they changed their methods would not have done a damn bit of good.

Show up at the DMV with just a birth certificate and get a brand new license? Not here you don’t.

If you think that the management was thinking “this might be a sting”, I have no idea what to say to you. They were well aware that I was of age, and chose to stand by their employee.

Several people on this board have been subjected to sting operations while in a position to sell alcohol to a potential minor. Find me one of them that thinks my actions resembled anything other than a customer rightfully asking for something they are entitled to buy.

How is this the bars fault? They have to pay the fine if you were an old-looking 20 regardless of how faded Ohio IDs tended to become

How did they know you were of age? You were without valid identification. Also, standing by their employee is usually considered a good thing.

I was never caught in a sting, perhaps because I wouldn’t sell to someone with an illegible ID. But that doesn’t really matter, they have the right maybe even an obligation to refuse service. I said it sounded like a police setup to me, but I have no idea what the bartender thought. Maybe he isn’t a Doper.
Usually, in my experience, the louder someone complained about not getting served, the less likely it was that they were of age. Slapping down a couple of irrelevant documents doesn’t help matters.

Remember, you asked for opinions, and in my opinion they were justified.

What he said. Yeah, you got caught in a bad situation, but the bartender and manager could have landed themselves in a much worse situation, if you’d been part of a sting. Most people CAN’T judge adult ages so finely that they can tell a 23 year old from a 20 year old.

You should be pissed at the DMV, rather than the restaurant.

You were the dick in this story, not the bartender or the manager. They were following the rules. if your driver’s license is faded, go to the DMV and get another. This isn’t brain science or rocket surgery.

How is he the dick? He wanted a beer, was refused so he argued his point, which is within his rights, upped the argument to the manager, which is within his rights, and then he and his friends left since they wanted to be able to drink. I would leave a restaurant if that happened to one of my friends, and find a place which would serve him.

They pay no fine at all. I was old enough to buy. They knew that, and you know that. To say otherwise is just playing Devil’s Advocate.

Have you ever had a job that would have subjected you to one?

In your opinion Police stings typically involve the patron asking to speak with management, presenting numerous Federal and State documents, and causing a fuss? What a sneaky “sting” that would be.

And your experience is? Underage people asked to speak with management because they got called on a fake? You have to be kidding.

You mean the “irrelevant” documents you told me to use to get another faulty ID? If they were “irrelevant”, maybe I couldn’t use them to obtain a new ID.

The manager was being a dick. My guess is that he just wanted to side with the bartender, no matter what.

I think you handled it well.

I sympathize with dnooman, but I have to support bobotheoptimist. I’ve worked in retail liquor sales and have been guilty of not properly looking at a young person’s ID and misjudging their age. I don’t blame the bartender or manager for not wishing to take a chance. True, it wasn’t their fault that Ohio drivers’ licenses were crap, but they had to follow state law and the state will never come down on an establishment for refusing service when in doubt about someone’s age. And they did have a reasonable doubt. The fact that you were old enough to legally drink does make your experience suck, but the law requires that an establishment not make a sale if the salesperson is in doubt. As for the manager, I can’t speak to Ohio procedure, but here in Arizona, it was always store policy that the salesman had the final say in case of refusing service, as it was his ass on the line, and it was management policy to stand by the seller’s decision.

I find the notion that a person that acted in the manner that I did, was part of a “sting” to be laughably ignorant.

Underage people trying to procure alcohol, tend to not go to corporate restaurants (or any restaurant that their friend isn’t a server at). They tend to go to Mom and Pop places that are less likely to card. If they do get carded, the last thing they want to do is bring attention to their fraudulence, and possibly involve the authorities. Asking to speak with a manager is an invitation to a ticket or arrest when an underage person attempts to buy alcohol.

I bought beer when I was underage, and I knew how to do it fairly well. The situation I described at the restaurant would never have happened for the reasons I mentioned above, had I been underage.

Liquor control agents often employ people that seem like they might be old enough, but present either IDs that show them to be underage, fail to provide ID at all, or present a fraudulent ID. The idea that a sting would involve presenting a valid, in state ID, complete with counterfeiting protection measures, asking for the manager, presenting TWO forms of federal identification, a birth certificate, and a University ID with a matching social on it, in the hopes of catching a bartender that fails to card, is fucking preposterous.

If you think I was in the wrong, fine, but don’t try to tell me that all parties involved didn’t know I was of age. That’s ridiculous. They stuck with policy, and ignored the rather large pile of evidence that I provided to prove who I was, and how old I was.

Show me a law enforcement protocol, or even better a liquor control protocol, that specifies the undercover operative should have falsified University ID, Social Security card, Birth Certificate, and Selective Service card. I’ll send you $50. Oh, and all of this after escalating the issue to the management representative on the premises. Maybe, just maybe, it would be easier for them to produce a fake ID.

The bartender might have thought it was a LC operation when he first carded me, the manager was just being stubborn.

Based on my reading of the OP Once upon a time,…this was the first year that Ohio came out with digitally printed Ids This didn’t happen last night. He has been obsessing over it for a while. Jesus Christ, if you have been obsessing for a year? Two? Three? over not getting served a beer one of two conditions exist. Either you are a dick or you are an alcoholic. You choose. No normal sane person loves a beer that much.
Furthermore, look at it from the bar’s point of view. If it turned out he was under age, and this was part of a sting, they could loose their license to sell booze. That license is worth more than any one customer could ever bring in the door.
Here is the PDF that lists the rules

Pretty fucking straight forward I would say. Your draft card, library card, SS card, and College ID? Sorry, don’t count.

Look up one post for the rules. Do you want the address to send the $50?

Those don’t meet the “sting” requirements I mentioned, do they?

Also, I provided a valid driver’s license. Clarity of the photo is not mentioned in your cite.

Does the amount of time that has passed change anything?

Is that really appropriate in this conversation?

So, normal, sane people that want to have a beverage that they are entitled to, should just keep quiet when they are refused it?

In this state, that would only happen had they been found to be in violation on several previous occasions. The first one or two result in fines.

Never did I present, nor mention a library card. That is disingenuous, and a misrepresentation.

You have either directly or indirectly called me abnormal, insane, and either a dick or an alcoholic. Forgive me if I take your statements with a grain of salt. You know where the Pit is. Use it if you feel the need to. Personal insults do not exactly strengthen your argument.