I should kinda apologize. I thought you were the OP. So all my ‘what did you want them to do’ and ‘I think you wanted’ were kind of meaningless since we were both arguing the hypothetical.
Sometimes managers/owners do exist just to let customers vent and blow off steam. OTOH, there’s a difference between letting a customer rant that the tomatoes are way to red and you should be embarrassed vs someone, seemingly levelheaded letting a manger know that a customer that used to be in the store had a gun.
Again, I guess if you want to let the manager know, no harm, no foul, but I’d still say it’s wiser to inform the police. And just to be clear, this isn’t comparable to to calling 911 because of a burned out headlight.
**Crotalus **makes a valid point about pocket holsters. Some of them cover just enough of the weapon to protect the trigger. There are also a number of pistols with concealed or shrouded hammers to prevent snagging when drawn. A Guide Pocket To Carry
This is incorrect. Carrying a weapon is only totally prohibited in establishments that derive 51% or more of their income from the sale of alcohol for on-premises consumption.
I can even go to Chili’s or Appleby’s and have a beer with my steak while carrying so long as I don’t reach an undefined level of intoxication. Question 28 of the above link. Not defending it, but that is the law. Also Not busting your chops, but we are here to fight ignorance.
As to the OP, kind of a meh question. With the man already leaving there wasn’t much to be done.
Running Coach gave one of the relevant cites, but your statement is incorrect. Using the Texas Alcohol Beverage Commission’s language,
You need “on-premise consumption” and “more than half of gross receipts from the sale of alcohol.” Liquor stores clearly satisfy the second prong, but they don’t usually allow on-premise consumption. Which is why I can walk into, e.g., Spec’s and browse their great selection of microbrews while carrying a concealed handgun. Restaurants usually allow for on-premise consumption of booze, but half of their receipts aren’t from selling it, so concealed carry is fine there too. (Some restaurants have a separate bar area, like this very tasty 24 hour Tex-Mex joint, and in that bar area, you’ll find a 51% sign. I just don’t stand by their bar when I eat there, and if I’m carrying. Admittedly, I’m not 100% sure I’m not in violation of the law by doing so.)
Bars satisfy both prongs, so you’ll see a 51% sign with big red numbers—it’s a defense to prosecution under the relevant subsection (b(1)) if there isn’t notice—and you’ll be in violation of the law if you carry a handgun on their premises. (Unless you’re a cop, or, interestingly, an “active judicial officer” or one of the attorneys for the city or district attorney’s office. See subsection (h) in Texas Penal Code §46.035. Some animals are more equal than others…)
The penalty for most of the ‘carrying where you shouldn’t as a CHL holder’ laws in Texas is a class A misdemeanor. Carrying in a bar (or a correctional facility, for that matter) is a 3rd degree felony. 2-10 years in TDCJ (prison) and up to a $10k fine. Texas Penal Code §12.34. So don’t do that.
To cap off the booze and Texas CHL holders carrying discussion, regardless of notice, receipts or any of that, it’s against the law to carry while intoxicated. Intoxicated is finally defined at Texas Penal Code §49.01(2)
Business owners can ask CHL holders to not carry a concealed or openly-carried weapon within their premises, but that’s a whole separate discussion.
As to the OP, I’m with JoeyP: what is the manager going to do? If you think the guy with the pistol is breaking the law, call the cops.
Interesting - He might well have been in full compliance with the law. Apparently outside of NYC it’s much less restrictive. If this happened inside the boundaries of NYC in the manner you described I would have gathered my family ASAP and skedaddled, telling the manager on the way out the door .
That was my first thought, as well. My second is that I don’t know the gun laws in New York, so I have no idea what is allowed regarding open or concealed carry, and it appears that the OP didn’t, either. My third is that the mentioned prohibition on carrying where alcohol is served (or in a bank) might be completely irrelevant in NY; I don’t know. It certainly is in PA, where there is no prohibition against carrying in either bars or banks.
Frankly, this sounds like unwarranted hysteria, though I agree that the described situation seems like really lousy concealment, if that was intended/required by law. And also poor execution, as I can’t imagine carrying a full-size pistol in a fleece jacket pocket. A pocket pistol in a holster? Sure, but not a full-size pistol, either in or out of a holster.
Normal people don’t walk around with guns hanging out of their pockets by me.
That and it was a nice peacful and beautiful family bonding moment… interrupted by “Is That Fucktard Just Stupid Or Brandishing”?
No. Hysteria would be me actually calling 911.
Granted, if I communicated better, maybe I would have heard from the manager,
“Oh, that’s just Fuck-Head Matt… the mayor’s son. Yeah, he always walks around like that. Lots of us carry guns up here, but he’s always been a little tetched in the head. See how he doesn’t wash or shave?
That gun has no bullets, they were taken away. Its just easier to let him wonder around & drool like that. Pay him no mind…”
Did the guy with the gun do anything wrong or illegal? (If you could see the gun, then was it concealed?)
If not, then no need to say anything to anyone about it!
P.S. The attitude of the police when told about stuff like this is: Go away and don’t bother us with this silly stuff! Our job is to handle people who VIOLATE THE LAW. If he starts shooting people, THEN CALL US!
The OP should have said where this happened. In NJ anybody but an off duty cop carrying a gun in plainclothes is almost surely a law breaker: there are ~500 carry permits in the state, of 9 million people. And it’s especially unlikely one of those few permit holders or an off duy cop would carry a gun improperly and unsafely as described.
As several posts have mentioned, it could also be illegal in states with easy to get carry permits to carry a gun that way, but you’re right one would have to know the specific state’s (or local perhaps) law. In some states you don’t even need a permit to carry a concealed gun*, and I wouldn’t know what if any laws in those states say exactly how you have to carry it.
So in NJ I would call the cops if I saw someone carrying a gun loose in their pocket. Visiting any other state, even if I had a general idea of the severity of their laws, I would not; I’d let any locals who saw it decide. And I don’t see the point of telling a manager if the person is already gone.
If someone is carrying the pistol in a holster of some kind that’s one thing, but carting it around in an exterior jacket pocket with the butt handle poking out is something else entirely. The second scenario suggest irresponsible stupidity in gun handling or a potential crime in the offing neither of which are scenarios where you want to be in the immediate vicinity.
Count Blucher,
I think telling the manager was the right thing to do.
Here is my take on it. You were there for a small portion of the day. The manager will be there a much larger portion of the day. Making the manager aware can help them put pieces together that you may not be aware of. Was the guy a jealous boyfriend of an employee? Maybe he is known to the manager and there is nothing wrong at all. Maybe the guy was waiting for a not busy time to rob the place. No one knows but that guy, but if the manager is aware of it, they can at least keep an eye out.
In general, I don’t disagree. But just because you can see the grip doesn’t mean a holster wasn’t in use. In fact, most holsters leave the grip uncovered. So, without seeing it, or even conducting a closer inspection, we just don’t know.
That’s actually an interesting point of view, and one I find hard to argue against. If the guy wasn’t doing anything wrong - or to be more precise, if the observer didn’t know if he was doing anything illegal - then calling the cops is an over-reaction. But informing the manager so he/she can be aware isn’t necessarily a mistake. As mentioned, the manager might know that the guy is a regular customer, or perhaps a known concern.
Most CCH permit holders (where available) go to great lengths to keep their weapons concealed, purchasing special holsters, shirts, and jackets in order to comply with the legal requirements. Even after exercising the utmost care, the weapon may be noticeable (most often because of printing, but sometimes simply because a jacket swings open or a shirt pulls up when the person bends over to get something off a shelf).
This guy certainly should not have simply stuck his gun in a pocket like that, but I can guarantee that local law enforcement isn’t going to do anything. OTOH, the store manager certainly has the right to ask the guy if he is carrying IF the store or restaurant has posted the required notice that they do not permit concealed weapons on the premises. If proper notice has been posted, the guy can then be asked to leave. If he doesn’t leave, it is trespassing and is likely to lead to his losing his CCH. (A better approach might be for the manager to simply inform the guy that the proper notice has been posted. Most CCH holders don’t want to endanger their status and will promptly leave.)
This is generally true in most states with CCH, but the laws in this specific state may differ.
Again I don’t understand why the OP didn’t just say which state this happened in, but did imply it was in a strict gun law state.
In NJ I can guarantee you local law enforcement would stop anyone they saw or who was reported to them with a gun loose in their pocket, and unless that person showed a badge while sheepishly admitting they shouldn’t carry the gun that way, the person would be highly likely be arrested. They would be very unlikely to cut one of rare legal CCW holders (~500 in the whole state) any slack if the gun was showing, likewise a naive out of stater thinking their carry permit would be honored in NJ, and most likely it would be somebody knowingly committing a felony by carrying a gun without a permit. I’m not saying that’s how it should be, even here much less elsewhere, but it’s how it is. And double that for the NYPD across the way. I fully realize it’s different in most other states…which is why OP should have said where it happened.
The reference to “Bloomberg” strongly suggests that he’s talking about New York State. And, the “Location” on his header says, “Stuck in GWB traffic…”, which I take to mean “George Washington Bridge”, suggesting that he lives in NJ and commutes into NYC.
But…yes, I think he’s being unnecessarily coy about the location.
