I especifically quoted the above post in its entirety. Because it bears repeating in mantra-like fashion each and everytime the Arab word is demonized – which is basically everyday both here and in the media.
And by reading this thread and listening to an alarming numer of Americans everywhere, the brainwashing is achieving the desired effect: “My Leader right or wrong!”
My hat’s off to you, sir. Very well said.
Some additional questions that occured to me while reading this thread:
As a point of interest, does anyone know how many people died in accidents in Iraq today? Does anyone care? Further, are you at all worried about the hundreds of thousands* that are likely to die as a direct result of an American invasion? Will you mourn them as deeply as you apparently expect them to mourn for you at this time?
Perhaps this last question is the cruelest of all, for those same Iraquis you’d have wanted to express grief today, are likely to be many of the same that will be dead as result of your bombs tomorrow. In fact, some of you have said as much in this very thread. Do you really think they don’t realize that?
No, Spiny Norman, rest assured you’re not the only feeling disturbed by the darkening clouds of war we seem to be flying straight into.
*Report: death, disease await Iraqi children in the event of war
Why try to understand someone’s opposing viewpoint when an ad hominem will discredit them?
cheers
Erek
…consider me disturbed as well. 
I don’t think it’s that nobody cares, even those who are in favor of war; I think we here are all intelligent enough to realize that war = casualties, probably a lot of them. It just depends on how you think those casualties (on both sides, mind you) balance against the likely casualties (again, on both sides) that would result from not going to war. Obviously, there are differing opinions on which side is larger; that’s why we have Great Debates.
I think that you’re asking a bit of a wrong question, assuming that anyone who wants to go to war is doing so salivating at the thought of civilian deaths, or at least coldheartedly ignoring them. I don’t think that’s so, even for Bush. It’s like the Hiroshima/Nagasaki debate: which course of action/inaction do you think will bring about the greatest good and the least death? For some people, that’s war.
(FWIW, I’m against war at this time. But I don’t think this question, again, is the right one to ask.)
TechChick: that was more or less an aside on evil. I don’t think that my lack of belief in evil in any way, justifies inaction. I don’t believe Osama bin Laden is evil. I think he’s a man who has a desired society and feels that we are one of the biggest obstacles to that goal. I don’t find that evil, as we feel that we have a desired society, and we feel that Osama bin Laden is one of the biggest obstacles to that goal.
Osama bin Laden deduced correctly that our ability to wage war, can be decreased significantly by hitting specific strategic targets within the civilian population.
We deduced correctly that Al Qaeda’s ability to wage war, can be significantly decreased by destroying their bases in Afghanistan where a large portion of their strength resides.
Their attacks and our attacks were both strategically significant and they were both aimed at accomplishing our opposing, yet similar goals.
We claim that Osama bin Laden started it by attacking the World Trade Center. Osama bin Laden believes that we started it by supporting despotic regimes in his home region.
So how is one evil and not the other? This issue has two sides like it or not.
I’m not trying to apologize for anyone, however, I’m not going to suddenly accede that evil is a rational notion suddenly because people will inappropriately label me as an apologizer, especially when the first definition of evil the most common in American usage is: ** 1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse>** something that stems from a religious code to which I don’t feel is valid.
Now if you wanted to use the second or third definitions 2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE <an evil odor> c : DISAGREEABLE <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY
I might be more inclined to be able to agree with you, that Rape and Terrorism are in fact evil.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree on the American tax dollars, I believe that the world economy is too interconnected and that economic interdependence is the quickest way to ending armed conflict in the world, so, I don’t agree with you that American dollars should stay here, I think we should be more interdependent, and not less.
Erek
Feh. And and to think I even previewed. It should, of course, read “disturbed by the fact” rather than just “disturbed”.
My bro made an excellent point. He said “Why should we care what the Iraqis think about our space program? They can’t even feed their own people.”
Nice to see people who are living in the Medieval ages trying to comprehend what is going on in our world.
If you’re against this war, then, at some level, you’ve obvioulsy asked and answered the questions I posed in one fashion or another – and apparently you care more about those who will surely die as opposed to those that your Resident says might die if you don’t go to war. Never mind that there’s a CIA report stating that the likelihood of Americans dying will increase significantly if this war materializes – not that he’d need the CIA to tell him if he had just a tad more common sense than greed.
And oh how close ‘collaterall damage’ has become to being an euphemism for ‘salivating warmongers’ in my mind.
Anyhow, I am well aware of the reason for Great Debates – I’ve stated my case there and a few other forums as well and have had roughly the same results as 80% of the world’s had trying to persuade your Great Leader to cool his jets – figuratively and literally – and that has been, none at all.
OK - I haven’t read this whole thread, because the first few posts seemed to show where it was heading.
I would just like to say that firstly as a journalist I am appalled by this story, which was an easy media beat up, so sensationalist. Of course there will be Iraqis happy to see anything go wrong in America - you guys are threatening them with war, after all. It doesn’t make it right, nor does it make it right to interview a “government employee” and a “mechanic” and represent them as Iraqi opinion.
Secondly, I was going to quote some of the more inflammatory statements here, but I won’t, because you know who you guys are. I don’t if any of you know any Iraqis, but I know and work with many people from Iraq. Few of them support Saddam, few of them admire America. That does NOT mean they are rejoicing in the deaths of seven innocent astronauts, a tragedy for humanity and for science. They hate Bush, AND they hate Saddam.
Yeah - fuck these stupid individuals who think it’s “God’s vengeance” that this terrible thing happened. But they do not represent all of Iraq.
Okay, let me start this by pointing out that I am only picking on one point in your post and elaborating later.
I don’t have any cites and I wish I did, but back in (I think, it was right about the time I moved into my current house) in 1998 when Egyptian peoples were crying about the fact that a certain amount of monetary gifts were given to their government with certain conditions of their use by the US government. Again, I apologize that I don’t have a cite. But the money was loaned or given reportedly they use it under certain circumstances. This is niether unreasonable nor is it a bad thing…I hope one of my fellow SDMBers can find that report and link it.
I completely agree that our money should be used to fix the problems at home before attempting to fix the problems outside. As one that has dealt with emotional and mental issues, if you can’t fix the problems that reside at home, it is very hard to fix the problems elsewhere. It’s mearly a Band-Aid when it comes to monetary donations or low interest loans to countries that can’t seem to make it to the 21st century. It’s a nice little reward when there are people in our own country that could highly benefit given the current state of how the goverment pushes out money…something I am against in my Libertarian leanings.
Iraq has been hiding stuff and the UN admits it. They are seemingly not satisfied with the outcome of the inspections yet many countries are (especially France that has been against the policies of the US for decades) complacent in what the inspectors have found or haven’t found. I don’t agree that it’s time for war but I kind of wonder where it is we draw the line.
We once were “friends” with Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries…today we find ourselves in a quandry because of this. It is highly unfortunate that these are also countries (not all the people mind you but the leaders) that would rather see the US fall flat on it’s face.
So where does your loyalty lie? You seem to be a staunch hater of the US government but on the other hand you hint at the idea that the world is just one wacky place. You seem to rather go against the potential patriotism for fear of being seen as a normal human wishing this would correct itself. But you sit back and poopoo all US policy as some kind of Monsterous Behemoth that is out to swipe all those from the Earth that think differently than us.
Maybe you are totally against what our country is about, that I can accept but unless you have any definate solutions to the things that currently plague us, then why don’t you just keep your mouth shut. It does nothing when you say those things, if you don’t have a clear and concise arguement, most people will sit back and think you are a complete idiot. Myself included.
I hate to believe that you sit there in your computer chair and hate every damn thing the US government does to help secure your freedom and mine as well. I have told you I don’t completely agree but I don’t pull out BS about things that are really minor in order to put up a case of why I hate my government. I have issues, I do, but I am not a blanket statement about what is wrong with the US and it’s policies. I, at least, have a realistic view, unlike you.
Quoting myself:
And I stand with Castro and his Dictatorship…Yes, the US has financial sanctions against him but we don’t and haven’t “attacked” to free the people of their dictatorship. Hell we have been living with Castro for three decades and I haven’t seen a US invasion that I recall in recent memory. I think this is clear along the lines that the US tries to stay out of conflict as much as it can. It sanctions those that are against human rights, but that’s not a bad thing in my view.
I don’t think that George W is trying to prove something, he is reacting on reports from a world-wide organization that see major flaws in Iraq’s reporting of mass destruction weapons.
Hell if Tony Blaire (whom I have little understanding of other than news reports) supports the US in this matter, there must be something to the concerns, more than most of us really understand.
I don’t think that disarming them is necessarily justified. Of course Iraq has the ability to make weapons. They are industrialized, any industrialized nation has the capability to create weapons of mass destruction. You can make mustard gas out of Ammonia and Chlorine. I could go to the supermarket and buy enough chemicals to kill all the people in a subway car. I personally don’t care about the ideology. I’m all for what will most feasibly and realistically work, and I think that attacking Iraq doesn’t fall within that category. I think it will make things worse, and not better.
This is a GROSS oversimplification of the situation. We have at different times been friends with some of the more powerful factions that at one time ruled Afghanistan and Iraq, would be a more accurate statement. We went back and forth on our policy with Saddam left and right, so we were never really allies with Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.
It’s amazing how a well thought out, mostly well reasoned post can fall apart when the ad hominems start. You clearly have NO IDEA what my views on the subject are. I don’t hate America at all, I love the country I live in, and I think it’s ideals are very sound and reasonable ideals, that when implemented effectively are one of the most egalitarian systems ever created. I just happen to disagree with mainstream opinion on middle eastern foreign policy. People kept telling me to get more educated on the middle east, and I have, and the more I read the more I think that American thinking on the middle east is in error.
Again it astounds me that the belief that things are not one sided, black and white, or good or evil, can be translated as anti-Americanism.
Good luck in your realistic viewpoint. Which network has the best deals on them? I’m looking to get one.
Erek
The way you speak of it, is as though the information isn’t available for you in a book somewhere. For the most part, most of this information is there in the library, and available on the web for you. Sure, Blair and Bush have some classified info we are not privy to, but it is possible to form an educated opinion on the subject without such information.
As for economic sanctions, most of the world regards them as an act of war, because it limits their ability to access necessary resources. Iraq has had 2 million deaths due to sanctions since the Gulf War, compared to 125,000 killed in the actual fighting.
Again, where did you get your realistic view from? It seems a lot more simple than my unrealistic one.
Erek
Okay I concede that the US has many weapons of mass distruction, however I don’t believe that the US would use them unless provoked. There’s a tit-for-tat issue here and I have enough faith in our government to say that I don’t think they would use them without probable cause.
I have also told you that I don’t completely agree with the events that are happening. I would love for all to be hunky dory. However, with that said, I do think that Iraq needs to be free of weapons of mass distruction. Saddam is not afraid to use them, not at all. He has proven on his own people, that he’s not afraid to use them. I wish I had a cite but I am again citeless.
But we DID support him when it was evident that Iran was hell bent on making hostages names for the history books read up on it. We also supported the Taliban, unkowingly I truly believe, to the detriment of hundreds of thousands of women (in Afghanistan) against the Russian aggression and such that happened around the time of the Berlin Wall that fell. Downplay this all you want but we trained and gave weapons to those that apparently tried to strike against us on 9-11. These same people are reportedly those that flew four planes in US Space for no more than a religious calculation that apparently failed. We did go in and help those that apparently find us enemies. If this is a good thing, please point out WHERE in the hell this is a good thing.
May I point out…these are your views among others posted in this thread…please go through this thread and see the crap you have posted, this is just a small sampling:
You are “tired”, well good for you, but you completely said to me, in your unfathomable post that the acts of those around us will bring us more terrorism. I think I have a clear idea of what your thoughts are unless you refute any of those previous views in one post. If you do then I think an apology to the OP and many others here are warranted…You said more than a mouthful here. Your views are extremelly “anti-government” in my view…holy shit, what else can someone take away from that?
Well as one that is very skeptical of government to begin with, your views are highly extreme. So much so that even this Libertarian rushes to the view that your views are less than healthy in a world where politics are certainly out there. I don’t speak for all Libertarians or even a fraction of them but DUDE, you need to lighten up or the proctologist is gonna have to take those panties out of your butt.
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Good luck in your realistic viewpoint. Which network has the best deals on them? I’m looking to get one.
Erek
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Something I hope you can see in the days and weeks to come. a realistic viewpoint…and BTW, I don’t have cable so my views are mostly formed by those I see on the internet, and here on the SDMB. Ignorance isn’t bliss, you might find that out the next time you truly learn what is goin on rather than pop* information from your friends.
Of economic sanctions are a an act of war…HOLY SHIT, more than half of the US is at war with it’s self.
Ummm can I say TAXES???
I could much use my “taxes” to feed me and my animals but you see I owe taxes every damn year that goes to some Egyptian or Columbian or Mexican when I am eating shit for food. Shit that makes me fat and I am fat now…I can’t afford decent food because of the fucking taxes taking from me.
Oh yeah, sanctions are doing my country a lot of good.
Forget about the poor trailer stuck woman with three kids and her husband left and she can’t even afford Childrens Tylenol for the flu…you really turned my opinion to your side. :rolleyes:
That’s one of the most specious arguments I’ve ever heard, I don’t know where to begin to address it. Comparing taxes to militarily preventing a country from trading with other countries is just not a comparison I can easily wrap my mind around.
In my opinion that libertarian mindset about taxes is a load of bullshit, but I can see the logic behind it, I just don’t happen to agree with it, but I’m having a REALLY hard time coming to terms with the idea of taxes and economic sanctions that crush the economies of entire nations sending them into abject poverty for decades, being the same thing.
Not to mention that most radically poor people don’t pay a whole lot in taxes. Every time I’ve made less than 25,000 a year I got a shitload of my money back every year. I ended up paying maybe 10% all total, the largest chunk going to social security, which I will one day ideally get back.
Anyway, if you have any interest in understanding my viewpoint on the war on terrorism, try reading this article: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EA31Aa03.html
It sums up pretty well how I feel, I like the author pretty well in general. Keep in mind it’s pretty long and in depth and has nothing to do with being anti-American. I don’t view our current policies as being the essence of America, I think that accepting that they are outmoded and causing undue problems for the American people is perfectly acceptable and legitimate and does not at all make America any less than it was, or could be in the future. In fact I think it makes America better. YMMV
Erek
Well, I’d say the Danes have a bit of an edge on the rest of the world. Otherwise, fine post. 
Ah to pick apart this…I make, currently (because of the job status of my state and city) just a little over $20,000 a year, I used to make oodles more but with Social Security tax, Medicare tax AND income tax, you can take about 37% of my money’s out each year because of my “status” as a single person. I am Self Employed so this is reality every damn April for me for the last 7 years which included state taxes. Ad in that I am am single and prefer my life this way I don’t want to marry anyone, no one has deemed appropriate for that ceremony…If you aren’t self employed and you have an employer, call up your payroll department to find out exactly how much they actually match your income taxes, I bet you will be surprised at the least.
Let’s us just say I only make $20,000 which isn’t far off from reality, a year at the current tax rate I actallly bring in $13400 a fucking year and I am NOT far off from that figure in my real life…that’s $6600 that gets sucked into government programs I don’t support…this is money I could use to pay my fucking insurance which I can’t afford this month, I no longer can afford renters and car insurance, let alone that I can’t afford health insurance and haven’t been able to in two years, love the economy… This is money I could use to better me and ensure I am covered in the face of tragedy.
So Ummmmmmmm, yes, I think we have problems here that need more attention than the rest of the world when it comes to the money we pay out and the money we recieve. I would gladly give my money to ensure I have health, renters and car insurance, but FUCKING A, 37% of my taxes go those that apparently need me, never mind some nameless fuck in Africa that hates our country…we can’t buy their “love” we can only work to solve problems here. But never mind that another US citizen sacrafices her financial life so some nameless fuck in Afghanistan can have a school. You don’t care, it means nothing to you.
BTW, if I break a leg or an arm are you willing to foot the bill for me? How about if my car is wrecked by another uninsured driver? Will you pay my bill…Yeah, I thought that wasn’t the case.
I am as pissed off about the US government as you are, at least I have real reasons and I have values that you don’t apparently have, yours are very thinly veiled in policy issues that don’t mean squat to the normal American…You need a class in the American economy to understand what the average American, low income, goes through on a daily basis. mswas.
If you offer to pay my renters and auto inurance for the next two months you can color me changed to your ways, otherwise you are just blowing smoke out of your asshole. BTW, you’d actually have to follow through with it, not smoke and mirrors, a good $500 in my PayPal account would do.
To quote me again:
Um that should be 37% of my INCOME, not taxes, 37% of my income is taxes. And that’s the stuff I can equate in statements each year when I file.