We tortured kids to get their fathers to talk! God have mercy on our souls

[rjung]

I suppose “Don’t blame me, I voted for Gore” doesn’t quite cut it, eh?

[Liberal]

@Denis

I think I understand your point. However (yeah, here it comes), I don’t think the two cases are comparable.

In one case we have children being tortured to obtain a confession from fathers. Tortured by government sanctioned authority.

In another, we have children driven to the breaking point by abuse at the hands of criminals.

Although I see a common ethical thread between the two, I do get your point, and I suppose it is reasonable to see it that way.

[The_Man_With_The_Golden_Gun]

Does the US media not know about this yet? If so, I wonder what would happen if someone emailed CNN about this?

[Liberal]

I think it’s fairly stale news, actually. Check their archives.

[Denis]

Hmm. Perhaps I wasn’t too clear. Not the first time, undoubtedly not the last.

I voted for Gore too. Bush is President, whether I like it or not. He represents me (not directly, but as an American). I am sickened, angered, shamed, etc. at the stupid Iraq war and Abu Grahib. Whether or not I agree with it, it was done in my name as an American.

No matter how disgusted I am with atrocities committed by other world leaders, I can’t claim any responsibility for their actions. But I can claim responsibility for US gummint officials.

If I fail to try to make things right by, say, voting against Bush, whose administration fucked things up in my name as an American, I will be tacitly endorsing something I think is evil. I would view this as a serious moral failing on my part.

I cannot separate my responsibilities as a citizen from the actions of government officials. I do have a vote and a voice, and if I am to participate in civic life, I must cast my vote and make my voice heard.

[Denis]

That little screed was in response to rjung’s post.

[presidebt]

@Liberal

I think it’s fairly stale news, actually. Check their archives.

CNN archive search for “tortured children” “abu”

Google news search on “children” “torture” “abu”

I see one blog entry on CNN.com that deals with the issue. The first two pages of the google search reveal only international and foriegn news sources reporting on it.

[presidebt]

@presidebt

I see one blog entry on CNN.com that deals with the issue.

Correction: One blog report searching the web from CNN.com. Nothing when searching cnn.com exclusively.

[Squink]

@Liberal

I think it’s fairly stale news, actually. Check their archives.

From the google translation of the Spiegel article

[QUOTE]
The child welfare organization of the United Nations (Unicef) confirms the capture of Iraqi children by foreign military, reported “report” with reference to an internal report of the organization. Literally be called it in the so far unpublished document from June 2004: “children, who in Basra and Kerbela had been arrested because of allegedly activities directed against crew powers, were transferred by routine according to reports into an internment mechanism in Umm Kasr. Concern is exciting the classification of these children as interned ones, there it indefinite safekeeping without contact with the family, expectation of a procedure or a process contained.”

So the report’s not even out yet.
It’s NOT old news.

[Chairman_Pow]

@Apos

What most disturbs me about the torture story in general isn’t just that people were tortured, but rather that the methods used were those specifically invented to avoid leaving evidence of the torture. Stress positions, water boarding, exposure: all of these things can be as painful and psychologically devastating via pain as any other torture, yet they all share common traits:

1. they leave few or no marks or physical damage
2. they don’t “sound” all that bad to the uninformed public, even though they are just as horrifically painful as any other form of torture

That these methods were used shows a LOT of forethought about how to not only torture people, but also to both conceal the fact from the public as well as make it seem like it wasn’t all that bad even if the public finds out. Worse, generally the only people who know about these methods are high ranking intelligence agents. Ordinary soldiers aren’t taught these things, and they aren’t the sorts of things that would simply occur to them.

Would you have perferred that they tore out their eyes and branded their foreheads? I recall some previous threads where it was determined that these sorts of torture were “acceptable” as far as the gov’t was concerned and therefore fair play (as it were).

[Atticus_Finch]

@Chairman Pow

Would you have perferred that they tore out their eyes and branded their foreheads? I recall some previous threads where it was determined that these sorts of torture were “acceptable” as far as the gov’t was concerned and therefore fair play (as it were).

I don’t know exactly what Apos was trying to say, but I think his / her main thrust was something like my reaction to the news:

• the choice of torture methods that result in fewer physical scars etc seems designed to minimize the chances of proving torture
• the choice of torture methods that don’t look so bad to an average person (eg stress positions vs thumbscrews) seems designed to minimize bad press in the event that torture is revealed.

That is, the torture was deliberately planned to have as small an impact as possible on the press / public perceptions in the event of discovery. Therefore, the torture was:

• carefully planned at high levels
• planned with the intent of deceiving the American people and the international community.

I understand that this position rests on assumptions (see the “seems” in my first two points). However, if the assumptions hold true, the rest seems pretty solid.

[mhendo]

@RickJay

The other tragedy, alluded to in the OP, is that the fifth estate in the United States has entirely given up its job to keep an eye on the government. The complete lack of criticism in the American media - outside of fat documentarians, I guess - is just baffling to me.

Did they add another “estate” sometime when i wasn’t looking?

I could have sworn the media was the fourth.

[MelCthefirst]

Can you see how the hypocracy of it all when everyday US citizens are crying ‘freedom of speech’ when these acts occur and the propaganda of the media is in full action?

[sleeping]

It seems like this has been hinted at a while ago:

Al-Baz said he saw a 12– or 13-year-old Iraqi girl brought into the prison.

Late at night, he said, she was brought in front of his and other prison cells, naked and screaming. Her brother, held in an upper cell, heard her scream and call out for his help, said al-Baz.

On another occasion, al-Baz said, he saw a 15-year-old Iraqi boy, who was ill, being forced to hold two heavy cans of water and run up and down a corridor. If the boy stopped, he was beaten with a stick by an American soldier, al-Baz said.

“He collapsed from exhaustion, so they stripped him and poured cold water over him,” al-Baz said.

A naked, hooded man was brought into the area and placed face to face with the boy. When the man’s hood was removed, the boy was shocked to see his father and collapsed, al-Baz said.

The American soldiers “then forced his father to wear a bra and a pair of knickers” and laughed, al-Baz said.

During a speech, Seymour Hersh is reported to have

said that after he broke Abu Ghraib people are coming out of the woodwork to tell him this stuff. He said he had seen all the Abu Ghraib pictures. He said, “You haven’t begun to see evil…” then trailed off. He said, “horrible things done to children of women prisoners, as the cameras run.”

He looked frightened.

[Ninja_Pizza_Guy]

@Brandus

Do you hate freedom or something? Our soldiers are making america safer.

Was there supposed to be a smilie there? Or do you really think that acting like psychopathic assholes is going to make friends? Or is it more along the lines of the ever-popular “Let them hate, as long as they fear” motto?

OK, fine, but I have one question for you: how do you propose to make them so scared of us that not one person will ever dare do anything against us? Because right now, looking at the body count, they ain’t that scared.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@Ninja Pizza Guy

Was there supposed to be a smilie there? Or do you really think that acting like psychopathic assholes is going to make friends? Or is it more along the lines of the ever-popular “Let them hate, as long as they fear” motto?

OK, fine, but I have one question for you: how do you propose to make them so scared of us that not one person will ever dare do anything against us? Because right now, looking at the body count, they ain’t that scared.

I hope Brandus was merely being sarcastic.

I tried to discuss this in the RW with some people over the weelend.
They just called me a liar.

Our poor nation’s honor is gone.

[RickJay]

Judging from Brandus’s posts in other threads I’m pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

I can add nothing to the discussion of the OP because the sadness and revulsion I feel don’t really have words to describe them. I feel terrible for you guys who are so ashamed of what your country’s doing, because it really isn’t your fault in any tangible or direct way. (Democracy blah blah elected representatives blah, yeah, I know. But nobody voted for this.)

What frightens me most is the extent to which the U.S. media is voluntarily suppressing this stuff.