Well God fuck you Mr. President.

[Scruff]

I find myself agreeing with jarbabyj on this one. (As an aside, that means that a theater electrician agreed with an actress, which I think means that the ice in hell should be just about thick enough to skate on by about now).

Look, George W. sent out a Christmas card. Why? Well, he’s a Christian, so Christmas is what he celebrates at this time of year. It’s a Federal Holiday, and he’s acknowledging it with a somewhat “personalized” message based on his personal belief. Heck, most of the major religions have some festival, celebration or feast right around this time of year, because it’s nasty and dark outside, and we want something to remind us that the spiritual being/deity of our choice is looking out for us. Or for the atheists, we just need a bright spot to warm us up and give us inner strength for the upcoming three months of snow and ice (four in Buffalo).

So, he could have sent out a card wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, <mumble> Eid, Blessed Solstice, Good Yuletide, Happy Kwaanza, Happy Federal Holiday with Pay or whatever other festival I have forgotten/don’t know about. But he didn’t. Perhaps when we get a non-Christian president, she will send out an appropriate greeting of her faith.

And just as a footnote, I think that the “Separation of Church and State” is more to do with enforcing the absence of a state religion (such as the Church of England, where the Queen is the “Defender of the Faith”) than with saying that George W. Bush can’t say, “God Bless” when Dick Cheney sneezes.

[LurkMeister]

As a fellow Federal employee, I’d just like to say that I was not terribly impressed to get a bulk e-mail (SPAM) from my “Commander-in-Chief” which was little more than a collection of platitudes about how great America is and how we are “all in this together” or some such BS. The presence of religious sentiment, while not unexpected, did not affect the speed with which I deleted it from my In Box.

[elucidator]

I must stand in protest at the insidious corruption of SDMB values, the creeping degradation and inpustulation of accepted social, political, spiritual, and semantic norms for civilized and decent behavior. I refer, of course, to the use of the term “t*rdburglar”.

It has been established by a meeting of the more probitive and discerning minds of the SDMB, after thorough examination and explication, that this is the single most, and perhaps only, truly offensive term in the English language. (Indeed, it is exceeded in any language only by the Finno-Lapplander verb scpleknodder which refers to an unspeakable practice involving reindeer)

I trust you will all join me in maintaining vigilance, that this utterly offensive malphemism shall not gain a foothold in the pristine and rarified syllabus of the wise.

[Blueapple]

Let’s not forget what Bush v1.0 said about atheists.

[Miller]

*Originally posted by Demise *
**How dare he wish you well, eh?

Do you curse at retail clerks when they tell you to have a nice day? **

Well, that’s what I do:

Clerk: Have a nice day.

Me: You LYING WHORE! You don’t give a flying fuck if I have a nice day, do you? DO YOU?

Clerk: No. No, I don’t. You’re wasting my valuable “staring into space” time with your petty purchases. Take your crap and never, ever come back.

It’s called honesty, people.

(PS to Xavier: )

[Guinastasia]

I say, just toss the card and go on about your business. Right now, this is the least of the offenses.

[Freyr]

**wring wrote:

gee, Kimstu and I seem to be the only ones wondering \(ahem) who the fuck is paying for the PRes to send any kind of fucking greeting cards to all federal employees???**

Gee, I hate to break the news to you, but the President does get a salary.

[Freyr]

**Lucki Chaarms wrote:

I’m not saying that people WILL be, and I’m fairly sure that a good percentage of America would be made uncomfortable upon recieving a card similiar to what you posted, but that’s a whole separate problem.**

No, it’s precisely the problem here. Dubya isn’t showing respect for people who practice religious beliefs that are significantly different from his. He’s either implying that all gods are One God and Atheists are SOL on the matter or that the only religion that really matters is Christianity and if you’re not Christian, well, tough luck. Either attitude stinks, especially coming from our Chief Executive.

The only way to get Dubya to change is to let him know he’s making a mistake.

[Angel_of_the_Lord]

For pity’s sake…this has got to be one of the stupidest gripes I’ve ever seen.

Look, I’m not a Christian. I believe in separation of church and state–the state should not mandate any religion. The state should not prohibit the reasonable (IE, anything that doesn’t involve actually hurting anyone else) practice of any religion (or lack thereof).

But Jesus-to-Pete, just about every fucking president has used the word “God” in a speech. It’s in the damned Declaration of Independence. And you’re upset about it being on a christmas card?

Look, the man is sending you his well-wishes (albeit in an annoying, spam-esque fashion, but that’s a whole other point) in a way that he sees fit. Yes, he incorporated his god into the greeting, but…you know, the president is allowed to have his own beliefs, too.

It is not a state-mandated religion. It is not infringing on your own personal rights. Jesus Christ on a frickin’ pogo stick, do you get offended if/when people send you Christmas cards that aren’t the president when they include the word “God”? Are your beliefs so shaky that you fear any mention of Christianity. 'Cause, I’ve gotta say, mine sure the fuck aren’t.

(And, no, I am not Christian–yes, I know my username implies that, but I’m not. All is not as it seems…).

There is a difference between denouncing a particular religion/belief/lack-of (as Bush Sr. did with atheism and Bush Jr. did with Wicca/paganism). That is condemnable. But espousing one’s own beliefs? That’s our constitutional right. And, much as we might agree, it’s Bush’s right, too.

Now, he starts infringing on our rights, then I’ll get testy…

[kaylasdad99]

*Originally posted by Freyr *
****wring wrote:

gee, Kimstu and I seem to be the only ones wondering \(ahem) who the fuck is paying for the PRes to send any kind of fucking greeting cards to all federal employees???**

Gee, I hate to break the news to you, but the President does get a salary. **

Please tell me you’re not seriously suggesting that he paid for this mailing out of his own personal finances.

[pepperlandgirl]

But Jesus-to-Pete, just about every fucking president has used the word “God” in a speech. It’s in the damned Declaration of Independence. And you’re upset about it being on a christmas card?

I hate it when people say this. Jefferson was not referring to the Christian God in the DoI, at most, it was the deistic ideal, Creator, of Locke’s philosophy.
That’s why it doesn’t bother me at all, because I know what Jefferson was referencing and what he meant.
Bush, however, was not referring to the God in the DoI, or if he was, it was as Freyer indicated, that all Gods are One God.

[Angel_of_the_Lord]

I would argue that Jefferson probably was referring to the Christian God, judging solely by the time period involved and his ethnic background (western European). However, I’d like to see a cite on this, as I admit that I could be wrong…

But barring the DoI (great acronym, btw ), what is the difference between, say, the president saying “God” in an inaugural (I know I didn’t spell that correctly, but I have a paper due in the morning, so I’m not about to look it up) address and saying “God” in a Christmas card? And how does it affect your beliefs? You know he’s wrong, and you know that his saying “God” is not an official declaration of a state religion and does not take away any of your rights…why does it matter?

[SPOOFE]

I do get a little annoyed with the assumption that everyone is celebrating the birth of “our” Lord and Saviour at this time of year.

I celebrate presents. Because, y’know, a box covered in shiny paper and a bow died for my sins.

[Sam_Stone]

Please tell me you’re not seriously suggesting that he paid for this mailing out of his own personal finances.

No, but he might have paid it out of his campaign fund, however that works for presidents.

Man, Karl Rove has Bush’s signature cold.

[pepperlandgirl]

I would argue that Jefferson probably was referring to the Christian God, judging solely by the time period involved and his ethnic background (western European). However, I’d like to see a cite on this, as I admit that I could be wrong

cite, cite, andcite.

It should be pointed out that Thomas Jefferson, the principal drafter of the Declaration, although he often referred to himself as a “true Christian,” did not accept the doctrines of the virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus, the divinity of Jesus, or any miraculous powers ascribed to Jesus, nor did he believe in original sin or justification by faith.Given Jefferson’s religious beliefs and the lack of any distinctively Christian language in the Declaration, many have argued that the theism of the Declaration is the religion of Deism and not the religion of Christianity. (Deism was a rationalist, monotheistic faith associated with the 18th Century Enlightenment in Europe; Deism had no creeds or dogmas, but in general Deists, while believing in God as Creator of the Universe and even as author of moral laws, rejected belief in miracles and considered reason and experience rather than revelation and faith to be the proper sources of religious truth. The modern Unitarians are probably the closest heirs to the Deists of Jefferson’s day.)

No, Jefferson was not referring to the Christian God. Jefferson had many criticisms ofChristianity, and as you can see from the above quote, didn’t really accept any of the tenents of Christianity. Jefferson was a Deist, as were many of his contemporaries (Franklin and Paine spring to mind), and the thought behind the DoI was partially inspired by John Locke. When Locke referred to a “Creator” he meant in the sense of Deism, not Theism.

Why does it matter? Because, as has been pointed out inthe thread many times, it shows a distinct lack of respect for people who do not share his beliefs. I can’t really attribute malice aforethought to it, but I almost wish I could. The fact that he probably didn’t even give it a second though almost makes it worse, because it doesn’t occur to him that he should at least pretend to show respect for people who are not Christians or believe in God. That’s what it comes down to, basic respect and manners. The lube of life.

[armedmonkey]

*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl *
**Yeah, I don’t know why y’all are so bent out of shape. December and the Holiday Seasons is the time of year when everybody, of all religions and belief systems, can get together and celebrate the Birth of Christ. What are you? Some kind of fucking Grinch, trying to ruin Christmas for everybody? **

Oh, fuck you and your ridiculous DoI rationalizations with a six foot spruce angel-topped spruce, pepper. Nice unbiased sites by the way. All three were from “infidels.org” whose mission statement is apparently “to defend and promote metaphysical naturalism, the view that the natural world is all there is, a closed system in no need of explanation and sufficient unto itself” Smell, that? That’s an agenda. I’ve seen december use editorials as cites that were more impartial.

If you had bothered to actually read what I wrote immediately before you posted the gem quoted above, instead of just ripping a couple sentences from one of my earlier posts for your snappy little comment, and maybe bothered to actually get that underused grey matter of yours to think rather than wallow in sarcastic pre-packaged self righteous indignation, you might have gotten my salient point. Since you seem a bit slow, or possibly just overly sure of yourself and bull-headed, I’ll repeat the relevant point for your edification.

originally posted by me and ignored by pepper
True, some atheists celebrate … (consumerism?) or whatever this time of year - but it’s not an actual holiday like Christmas, Hanukah, or Ramadan. Since these obviously involve God, and even Kwanzaa involves God to some extent, including a reference to the deity in a “Holiday Greetings” card is completely appropriate

The message apparently never said the word “Christmas”, but rather either “Season’s Greetings” or “Holiday Greetings”. The president never said for everybody to celebrate the birth of Christ, regardless of your little pre-packaged sarcasm (impress friends and family with your creativity abd wit! Pre-fabricated Simpson’s quote perfect for all occasions!) You are wrong here, pepper, and your prejudgement is interfering with your grasp of the facts.

Dubya’s words could be paraphrased “may the deity of your choice bless you and you families”. He never actually said “Christmas”, and thus included all three major monotheistic religions, regardless of their views on the divinity of Christ. This covers the vast majority of Americans. Being sore that your small minority group was excluded from a “Season’s Greetings” card is oversensitive bullshit. I don’t see the Budhists up in arms because he failed to mention Tet.

Wring, it appears that this message was contained within an e-mail sent to all federal employees, rather than a anctual physical paper card. Thus the cost would be negligable.

[armedmonkey]

Please forgive typos and splices contained in above. I have not had my FDA recommended daily allowance of java yet.

[bayonet1976]

*Originally posted by Dinsdale *
**To bayonet:

Dude, my search turned up a bunch more along the lines of :

“I am a person who enjoys life, and for years, I enjoyed having a few drinks. But gradually, drinking began to compete with my energy,” Bush wrote in his autobiography. “I’d be a step slower getting up. My daily runs seemed harder after a few too many drinks the night before.”

The morning after a boozy 40th birthday party in 1986, he woke up at Colorado’s tony Broadmoor Resort and decided, on his own, to get sober. Alcohol had begun to “compete for my affections,” Bush said later. Certainly he didn’t need Alcoholics Anonymous, he told the Washington Post: “I don’t think I was clinically an alcoholic; I didn’t have the genuine addiction. I don’t know why I drank. I liked to drink, I guess.”

YMMV. But I think the above somewhat understates what I heard reported as his “young and foolish” behavior from at least college until his 40th b-day.

And we see how well his chosen approach of openness has done with regards his daughters.

I can see how there might be too many vague secondary references to post. So how bout just one attributable quote, dude? **

Since you have tried to shift the discussion a couple of times, once to Bush’s alleged drug abuse, and his fitness as a parent, I’m gonna assume you’re not interested in discourse but on dissing Bush, not my game I ain’t playing. Your original quote was about Bush never acknowledging a problem with alcohol. Not calling himself an alcoholic, just having a problem, my post and your own quote both show that he has in fact said he had a problem with alcohol.

[Lucki_Chaarms]

*Originally posted by Freyr *
**He’s either implying that all gods are One God and Atheists are SOL on the matter or that the only religion that really matters is Christianity and if you’re not Christian, well, tough luck. **

No he isn’t! He’s declaring (indirectly) that he believes in a certain singular god and (directly) that he hopes that god looks favorably upon those he had greetings sent to. He didn’t do anything to restrict their right to practice their religion, or imply that their religions were invalid, etc.

That’s like saying he told every American that didn’t get a Christmas card that they didn’t matter and he hated them. Are you offended about that? There is no reason to be offended by an innocuous well-wishing that makes mention of the sender’s deity.

LC

[vanilla]

God loves President Bush ;j