Argh. I got the card. I thought it was nice. I put it on my mantle.
Never did I ever think someone would be offended by it. Dinsdale, if you are so fucking offended by it, then quit your cushy federal job in protest and burn the offending card in front of the White House.
Well it must have been a different card since it wasn’t an email but an actual White House Christmas card… But it still said the same thing…
And I am still not offended.
The taxpayers, of course. It’s presumably part of the President’s office budget.
Yes, that’s true, but it’s not illegal and not unethical IMO. I would imagine the precedence for sending out Christmas greetings goes back centuries. I’d bet money that Bill Clinton sent out a similar non-secular message.
Then write a letter to your Congressman and complain. But be sure to put a postage stamp on it. Because unlike our President and our Congressmen, we have to pay for postage. They do not. And there is no limit to how much they can send out on the public dime. I believe it is called the “franking privilege.”
There was a small scandal a few years back when it was discovered that a few Congressmen were using their franking privilege as a very thinly disguised way of sending out monthly “Ain’t I Great” propoganda letters to their constituency, with a noticeable upswing in literature being sent out during election season. It’s an incredible advantage for the incumbent to have, as you can imagine.
In any event, speeches were made a few politicians tsk-tsked the abuse of the franking privilege, but if Congress took any measures to put a cap on how much free postage each Congressmen got, I sure haven’t read about it. The theory behind the franking privilege is sound: you don’t want to limit a Congressmen’s access to his constituency and any cap would fly in the face of that argument.
You mean the tax payer money that has the words “In God We Trust” imprinted on it? 
yes, Lisa, he does have ‘office expenses’, but self promotional items (such as “remember me, I’m still working so hard on your behalf” sorts of things) are a poor choice on which to spend tax dollars (MHO).
Since I watch and see programs for folks in need cut to shreds, knowing that the costs are only beginning to come in for the war efforts, seeing the economy tanking out, seeing that the Federal employees themselves were asked /told to not expect raises etc etc etc., it seems, well kinda Catherine the Great-ish to send out greetings in such a manner.
while it’s not illegal (I never claimed as such), unethical is a trickier thing.
I’m sure Clinton did. Of course, at the time, our economy wasn’t tanking, we had a balanced budget, etc etc etc.
. . .why?
I mean, I recognize that there are a lot of people out there who have different beliefs than me. If they want their gods/God/what-frickin’-ever-already to bless me, or if they want to wish me a happy holiday–well, why the hell not? I mean, if they add, “and, by the way, you’re going to Hell” at the end of it, that’d piss me off…otherwise, though, it’s just a benign expression of their religious faith, something that I would never deny them.
Why wouldn’t I deny them this? Because I would expect the same rights. What goes around comes around.
I just don’t get why people are offended, is all.
Well, offended it a strong word, but I get annoyed because it shows little thought on the part of the sender.
There are so many ways to say “Wishing you the best this Holiday Season” and/or “Best Wishes for the New Year” without being divisive.
Its kind of like giving a vegetarian a box of steaks for Christmas. You mean well, but you if you don’t know enough about the person to give them an appropriate gift, don’t give them one at all.
What I don’t get is all the people who say “I wouldn’t be offended, so I don’t think Dinsdale is right in being offended.” Everyone has different tolerences for different things. For people who are concerned about the amount of God in our government, the POTUS and other politicians putting as much emphasis as they currently do on faith is disturbing. For people who doubt the sincerity of GW’s faith, or see him using faith as a means to politican ends, the sentiment could also be disturbing.
Thanks for that last post, D. You said some things better than I managed to.
Anyone else scroll back and realize that the word “offended” did not occur in my OP - or my 2d post, and that I was far from the first to use it in this thread?
In fact, not too much “offends” me. Before reacting strongly - either positively or neg - I try to remind myself to “consider the source.” Or, as I have adopted as my sig:
My problem isn’t with what he said. But that he said it at all.
He’s the president of the United States. In a sense he represents what the constitution and the bill of rights stand for. I view his constant evocation of god’s blessing as presenting the US as a Christian nation… Which I feel violates the spirit of the seperation of church and state. America should be a secular nation in the image it presents and support and defend ALL religions equally.
I agree, CR.
But, the responses abovemake clear not everyone does - whatever their philosophy/religion.
Which is yet another thing that makes our country great.
I wonder if I would have to re-examine and change my views if - just once - I found myself in the majority? 
I’ve heard this argument before, and I think it’s flawed. Obviously, Dinsdale has the right to be angry that he received the message, but that’s not the point. People have the right to take anything the wrong way. If I’m having a tough time of late, I have the right to become indignant when the bag boy tells me to “have a nice day” and post a pit thread about the evil supermarket and how it is trying to dictate my emotional well-being. I would be seriously surprised, however, if I didn’t get responses telling me to get over myself and shut the fuck up already. No one is trying to impose their degree of tolerance on Dinsdale, we’re just telling him to quit whining. Because this is the Straight Dope , most of us are using logical arguments to explain to him why his griefs are so trivial, instead of responding with a simple “well, God fuck you too, buddy”.
True, you never exactly said the word “offended”, but I think we were all safe to assume that you weren’t exactly a happy puppy. The thread title itself tells the president to fuck off because he asked God to bless your family.
Yeah, beeblebrox - but the word has some kind of negative PC-ish connotations. Along with a possible overlay of morality.
Moreover, my saying “I am offended” personalizes this issue. I don’t believe this mention of “God” is inappropriate simply because of how I personally might react, but rather because of what I desire from a leader. One of my more unrealistic dreams is that we see more tolerance, acceptance, and inclusiveness in all aspects of our society and world. This one e-mail may be really minor in itself. But I do view its phrasing as unnecessary, and potentially divisive.
Like I said, I don’t think I get very “offended” by too many things. But there are things that I disagree with. Might even say I disapprove of them. Think they are wrong, inappropriate, or at least unnecessary. This is one. And it concerns an area where I am very much in the minority in my country.
Maybe I am like the black person who is criticized for viewing everything as racially motivated. Or the Jew who sees antisemitism all around him.
And maybe I am silly for wishing better from my elected officials. Believe me, I have a pretty firm grip on the reality of American elective politics. I’ve lived in Chicago all my live for christ’s sake! But I won’t apologise for the fact that I still periodically get frustrated that things aren’t better.
Part of my post was sort of an admittedly childish and ineffective flailing about, acknowledging my impotence in this relationship. W is able to use considerable resources to spread a message that I really wish he wouldn’t. Same as I would not want a humanist president to send seasonal solstice/God is a myth greetings. Or a muslim president to send only Ramadan greetings.
That’s just not what I expect of the office. IMO, that is why people have congregations, and clergymen - not elected officials.
So W is able to use considerable resources to spread what is already the majority positon. Abd all I can do is rail to a message board. Pretty pathetic.
I know…which is why I was responding to Freyr, and not you, there :).
Unfortunately, this will have to be a drive-by due to time-constraints, but I had to respond to this.
This has got to be the pettiest, most hypocritical, rant in history. Look, there’s nothing wrong with disliking Bush, but the knee-jerk Bush-bashing says a lot more about the people who do it than it says about Bush.
**
There in one. Here’s a quote from Clinton’s farewell speech.
“Thank you. God bless you, and God bless America.”
So, y’all can open up another thread bashing that notorious fundie, Bill Clinton, for ramming his religion down your protesting throats or you can quit whining and shut up.
And let me wish you all an Emotion-of-Your-Choice Winter Festivity.
Well see, that’s your problem right there, you’re just not trying hard enough. Didn’t your mother tell you you could be anything you wanted to be when you grew up?
First, move to a southern state and join the opposite party of the incumbant President. Second, get a rich daddy. Ted Turner might be looking for a kid to adopt - just tell him you’re the son of Somalian refugees. After you get him to buy you a baseball team ( I hear AOL Time Warner is looking to unload the Braves) go to the offices of all the large oil, power, and tobacco companies in your snazzy new team jacket, the pockets of which should be stuffed with luxury box passes. Make it very clear to the executives that in exchange for campaign money, you are perfectly willing to be their bitch. No, you don’t get a reach around.
With all this money, call a press conference saying that you are NOT running for president. Repeat weekly. Exchange team jacket for leather jacket and visit military bases while wearing sunglasses. Three months before the primaries, announce your candidacy as the “outside” candidate who is not beholden to special interests (You WILL still have to be beholden to special interests, just don’t tell anyone that you have a set of kneepads emblazoned with the Exxon logo) With a little luck, and marketing a few futures on your soul to a certain subterranian fallen angel, you too can be President and author any goddamn holiday greeting you want to. I recommend “Blessings from Chtulhu”.
Good luck.
Hmmm, how would most Christians feel? I’m only one, but if you can speak for many non-Christian theists I suppose I can use my viewpoint to represent that many Christians. Therefore, upon being wished a happy Winter Solstice, Christians will smile and say “Thank You.” Since that’s what I do when my Wican friend says that to me. Funny, though, she doesn’t get pissed off over Christmas cards (and I would love to recieve a Solstice card.)
OTOH, I will make note of those who find the mention of God to be offensive in a holiday card, and instead of sending them an(e-)card that says “God Bless you this holiday season.” I’d send one that says " May you enjoy an empty celebration of consumerism this December." :rolleyes:
Hey truth - I don’t even like it when Jed Bartlett does it. How’s THAT for petty.
Meanwhile, I am VERY happy that I have found my area to distinguish myself in such illustrious company - even if it is only that I have the pettiest rants around. In my mind I consider myself as exceptional as the “best writer,” “deepest thinker,” or “hottest doper” on these boards. (As I tried to convince prospective employers, numerically the bottom quarter is just as exclusive a group as the top. Moreover, I don’t think us underachievers get enough credit, because without us, who would everyone else have to be superior to?)
Beeb - well I guess it’s good to have a plan…
elfkin - I appreciate your sentiments. I really do. But I feel I need to point out that it is easier to be magnanimous when your views are so strongly reflected by the majority, and you have the luxury of viewing alternatives as either exceptions or hypotheticals.
And I have to set straight any believers who feel that life - or the enjoyment of this or any other season, need be empty without belief in any particular deity.
The Humanists I know consider Humanism a system for people who love life. Although I tend to use the term atheism, that is simply because most people are more familiar with the term. In fact, my philosophy is non-theistic. Gods, or their non-existence, are simply not relevant.
I hope you have your tongue firmly in cheek when you say such things as “enjoy your empty consumerism.” Or when you ignore suggestions of phrasings such as “best wishes” or “season’s greetings”, and instead propose cumbersome and ridiculous alternatives. Because otherwise, it sure wouldn’t strike me as very - well - Christian.
I suppose you’ll be disappointed if I tell you I don’t my tongue firmly in cheek, or at least as not as much as you’d probably like. I don’t know if you celebrate Christmas or not, but to me if you take all religion out of it, all there is left to celebrate is the consumerism. (and fudge) If one chooses to celebrate but doesn’t want god involved at all, and people can’t wish them well for risk of offending, what are they celebrating? Buying and receiving stuff. I suppose that’s good enough for a lot of people, since it is nice to give and get, but it seems rather hollow to me; although it’s not as bad as Valentine’s Day.
Of course I wouldn’t actually wish them happy consumerism(so tongue is somewhat in cheek), I’d just tell them to have a nice day/vacation and ignore the holiday stuff all together when talking to them before the holidays; it’d be less awkward for both of us that way.
I absolutely agree with you. The question was asked “Who pays for this?” and I was answering the question. It wasn’t an endorsement. Personally I think the “Why are we wasting taxpayer’s money sending out stupid pre-signed Christmas cards anyway?” rant is a much worthier rant.
FTR, my friend (an atheist) sends me Winter Solstice gifts and I send her Christmas gifts. Neither of us cares what we call it. It’s the thought that counts.
I guess when I posted the “who’s paying for this?” comment, it was in the sense of “unless it’s George personally out of his own pocket, then I"m irritated and consider it a waste of tax $$” I’ll grant that I didn’t spell that out.
and I absolutely agree w/the personal friends swapping greetings.
however, unless I’m mistaken, George isn’t a ‘personal friend’ of all federal employees.