Thanks Testy. I suppose people pay attention to what’s right in front of them.
Thank you for the reply. I understand your dislike of my referring to the terrorists as being Muslim. After all, what else can you say? I do believe I must stand by my statement though. After all, they kill themselves (and as many others as possible) while shouting the name of your God and claim to be fervent adherents of your religion.
This may not be Islam as your understand or practice it, but they certainly seem convinced. After all, a cold-blooded murder/suicide would have to be the ultimate test of one’s sincerity.
I personally haven’t seen you defend terrorists. I have seen you claim that terrorists couldn’t possibly be Moslems though, and that is what I object to. As far as the part about how you reason etc etc, my whole point is that you don’t reason. You reflexively defend your religion regardless of the rights or wrongs of a given situation. As I said before, you have no choice but to defend your religion, you can’t help yourself.
The part in the middle of your post where you talk about it being easy to travel may be true, but I fail to see what it has to do with anything. Maybe you would like to give that some thought and clarify it for me.
I understand your opinion that the bombers are not AQ. I don’t know one way or the other although I have seen one article reporting that AQ claimed the “credit” for the act. I think we could possibly have a discussion on that. If you are claiming that the bombers weren’t Muslim then that is a different issue altogether.
For what its worth, I tend to agree with you that there is very little AQ central command left.
Salaam and have a good trip to the UK, with or without the planes.
Testy
Yeah, well, fucking little boys isn’t exactly encouraged in the Bible, yet Catholic priests tend to enjoy it quite a bit.
Wasn’t Mohammed a fucking soldier?
Overlooked something…
Sorry, you are misreading my posts.
I didn’t say there aren’t “Muslims”. Only God knows what they really are.
I said that your perception that being Muslim requires you to commit suicide is wrong
And we are not discussing Al Qur’an and how it is seen by Msulims. If you want to read about how I see it, there is a topic made by an other member about this on the GD.
I’m so sorry to disappoint you, but me being Muslim has absolutely nothing to do with me having done the studies I did. Which weren’t in the least “indoctrinating” me. And in fact: I did a very great part of it at a Western and above that also Catholic university.
I think your stay in an extremely indoctrinating country (and that indoctrination concerns the state - imposed wahabbi derivation of the school of ibn Hanbal) colours very heavily your idea’s. I think they are doing indeed a very good brainwashing on you overthere.
So you now actually claim that while they were blowing themselves up, they said that they were inspired by Islam?You actually heard them saying this?
By the way: I don’t belong to a “sect”. For me all those who believe in God and follow the teachings of Al Qur’an are Muslims.
I didn’t say that. I said that your claim that one needs to commit suidice to give proof of devotion to God as a Muslim is completely wrong.
Well, I agree that it takes courage to blow yourself up, unless you are that desperate that it doesn’t matter anymore to you or that brainwashed by whatever they can brainwash people with and thus think you make some heroic statement that makes you immortal in the memories of other people.
But neverhteless I guess that I’m a far better representative of my faith then someone who kills himself in order to murder other people. By the way: what makes you so convinced that you can know where I am at a certain moment? Are you one of those people who claim they can see others through a cristal ball?
You people keep amazing me.
Well, seen your posts you konw as good as nothing about the religion Islam. And for you being in that country… see my remarks above.
Saudi Arabia is not even a good representative of its own wahabbi teachings, far from that. Let be that it could be seen as some kind representative of Islam
May I return you the same. And I think you are in an environment where you can use all such and similar wishes. If I were you I wouldn’t be there, let be stay there. But that is one of the goals behind these type of attacks: foreigners (all) out and let us run the show here. Whatever that may be in their twisted minds.
Salaam. A
While Aldebaran may feel that these are not acts of true muslims, there are many others that feel it is and required at a time when the west is at ‘war with Islam’
Nevermind the past 25 years where many attacks have been made against the western world starting with Beirut and many other acts that just didnt make the news since most were uninterested at the time.
You will need to register at these two sites in order to read the active political threads. On http://www.ummah.com/forum/ they have made it so you have to log in to see the other half of the message board.
And at http://forums.clearguidance.com the ‘current affairs’ affairs thread shows 0 posts unless your logged in.
These 2 boards have got a lot of flack for the praising of thier ‘brave muhajadeen’s’ killing kafirs and muslim hypocrites.
Some of the muslims I have talked to say that these are wahhabi’s on this board but when asked if this is the case, they say its a lie made up by the zionists.
Just a snip from clearguidance on the latest:
There is about 5 pages on this thread and it carries on in glee basically.
Another thread on the same board was started saying that since muslims were killed that the mossad or cia was responsible…only after they realize that hardly any traitors to the Sauds are westerners were killed.
Not really, but he did do some generalling against the Meccan armies against him after he had been invited to rule Medina. Muhammed was a merchant who found himself forced into a situation that required him to become a teacher, a judge, a governor, and even a soldier/general. But he wasn’t a soldier any more than Socrates was a soldier (Socrates did fight for Athens during the Peloponnesian War)
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Aldebaran
At no time did I say that being Muslim requires one to commit suicide. I don’t believe that nor do I think the more rational dopers believe it either.
<SNIP>
**
If I’d been standing close enough to hear them we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Regardless, the killers cloak their actions in religion. Islam, specifically. I’m sure you don’t consider your particular beliefs as a “sect.” Believers of various religions rarely do. (see above) The Saudis also consider their beliefs as the proper version of Islam. Further, they have demonstrated their sincerity in a very convincing fashion.
**
Again, I have never made or implied this in any of my posts. Take a look through them.
**
I’d agree that you are a better representative of your religion than last Saturday’s murderers. As far as your location, I haven’t a clue. Nor is it of concern to me. Belgium was an assumption on my part.
**
I understand that you consider the Saudis as warped. They, on the other hand, would probably consider you as being less faithful than themselves. Many religious people consider their own version to be “the one true religion” and all others as heretics.
Thank you. Regardless of what you may think by my posts, I actually find Saudi a pleasant place. There are many good things about the country and yes, some of them seem to be based on either religion or at least the culture. Also, I’ll be damned if I let some unwashed, illiterate terrorist run me off. As you point out, that is what they want.
Have a pleasant Eid or Umra as the case may be.
Testy.
Not to stir the shit or anything, but considering the number of times that Dopers have been called “bigots” for using the word “fundy” to describe fundamentalist Christians, where are the condemnations from those same scolds for the use of the word “fundy” as applied to Islamic fundamentalists in the thread title?
You’d rather we call them progressive muslims?
Testy,
If you would know what
- Islam is about
- the wahabbis make of it
then - you would immediately understand that nobody but the wahabbis consider wahabism as “representative” of Islam.
And yes, there are some good things in that country because in fact you can do what you want as long as you do it in style. By which I mean: keep it for yourself and keep it inside. And that is what I mean when I say that they don’t even manage to be a representative of their own wahabbism.
Nevertheless whenever I do something that isn’t exactly koosher there is some horror movie in my head of being send there as punishment.
Salaam. A
By the way: there are also very clean an literate terrorists around 
I don’t think I understand what you mean by “what else can you say”…
And following your reasoning: So if I kill someone and say it is in your name, you are to blame or how do you come to your “conclusion”?
It is not Islam as Islam is… it is as simple as that. Practicing has even nothing to do with that. And I disagree that a suicidal murder is the “ultimate test” of “sincerity”.
Sincere in what? About what? You mustn"t be “sincere” to become a murderer. You only need to become convinced about becoming one.
I repeat: I don’t claim anybody to be yes or no Muslim. I claim that murder and suicide both are forbidden in Islam.
And as for me not “reasoning”… I still have some functioning braincell left, thank you.
Like I said: you are brainwashed in so far that whenever someone who is Muslim speaks against your perception of Islam you start talking about “reflex” and “defending religion” and “having no choice” and whatever other nonsense you write here.
Thank you for the intended insults, yet they completely miss their goal since this individual is very capable to make his choices, to control his "reflexes and has enough knowledge to know that religion needs no “defense” since it is a matter between you and God.
I think you should re-read some posts made by other members and it all shall become very clear to you.
Actually: I said that is my option on this moment. I didn’t see anything on a so called “claim” by AQ so far, and nothing about what the source of this claim then might be.
I find the terminology used by such groups also extremely cynical. As if any normal thinking person would give them honour by their “claiming” the killing of men, women, children…unborn children.
Did you see the story of the pregnant lady…Stabbed on a piece of metal apparently.
Even a blind and deaf person could predict that. As everyone with just a glimps of insight in the region, and in Iraq in particular, could have predicted what we see there happening right now.
I must say that it is until now not even as bad as I said it would become. (Yet I just heard that there were again about 8 blasts in the “green zone” in Bagdad. Have no confirmation on that yet.)
Thank you… Well, as long as they don’t shoot it out of the air or it falls down by some other cause, I guess the plane shall bring me there in a few hours.
It’s been some time since I last was in Cambridge and London. Maybe I should go a bit earlier and enjoy the anti Bush demonstrations from nearby.
It **IS ** a tempting thought…
Salaam. A
No, I’d rather that the people who jump down the throats of others who use the word “fundy” to describe fundamentalist Christians exhibit the same level of disapproval toward the use of the word “fundy” when applied to fundamentalist Muslims.
Which part of my first post was unclear?
Either it’s all right to describe fundamentalists of any religion as “fundies” or it’s wrong. A little consistency of outrage when it’s someone else who’s been “insulted” would be nice.
Ah I see now, sorry about that.
Personally, fundy seems an adequate shorthand for fundamentalists of all stripes.
Otto,
The main problem with this is that the word “Muslim” has almost become a synonym for “fundamentalist” in certain people’s minds. And in certain publications in certain countries.
Therefore you shall seldom see objections like the ones you just came to make.
For example: Under your very eyes here was posted that I am “brainwashed” because I am Muslim. In my opinion that alone says enough, no?
Salaam. A
And I tend to agree. There are those DOpers who don’t, and who, were one to refer to a fundamentalist Christian as a “fundy,” would flip. They don’t appear to be flipping at this use of their pet “slur” which strikes me as odd.
Well, you certainly have a point about people objecting to the term “fundy.” My own position is that if someone objects to the term then they shouldn’t adopt a fundamentalist attitude.
Best regards
Testy
Well, I suppose that if you could find “The First Church of Testy,” and several hundred million believers, then I’d be stuck with it. Aside from that, I don’t really see what it has to do with the question.
My point is that the terrorists are at least as convinced as yourself that their flavor of Islam is correct. In what way does your opinion outweigh theirs?
Well, I suppose we’re both going to have to live with our respective perceptions of Islam. To me, it seems very close-minded and arrogant in the assumption that it is the one, true form of worship. Regardless of what is preached, I see the way people of other faiths are treated in this country.
Regards
Testy
When I read back over my last response to you, it comes across as rather dismissive which was certainly not my intent. I have personally had Christians jump on my case about calling them “fundys” and I suppose someone should be equally outraged about me referring to the terrorists by the same name. In my own case, I see very little difference. Given the opportunity, Christians would be just as bad.
Regards
Testy
Testy:
Trying to enlighten Aldebaran with facts on any subject whatsoever is like trying to teach rocks to think. I’m sure you’re discovering that.
Thanks. I was just about to pick up on that. LOL Somehow, I’ve completely failed to get it across that it is his condescending attitude and giant religious blind-spot that irks myself and many others.
All the best
Testy