In this thread, one of our more recent Witnessers is attempting to persuade me and Eve to become Christians (along, of course, with everyone else).
It’s an interesting approach – totally disregard anything else that’s ever been said in six years around here, and focus on the message you think you need to get across.
I dunno – maybe someday I might consider giving Christianity a try on the basis of his clearly reasoned arguments! :rolleyes:
Sheesh! :mad:
Well, c’mon, Poly. As long as there are elements that actively proselytize a religion do you really think they’ll limit themselve to calm, cool reason.
No one attaches that to you. Or at least they shouldn’t.
Hey, Polycarp, if you convert to Judaism, you can control the banks… aint that a sufficient inducement?
Please don’t Polycarp, you can’t trust a guy who misuses innocent little apostrophes like that.
I don’t mean to hijack this thread, but are there even any reasoned arguments for religion?
I mean… at the very base of it you have to tell someone to suspend asking for proof before an idea is considered, and perhaps you need to get them to believe that a book is gospel, also irrational.
That’s not to say that people don’t have the right to worship whatever they want however they want, but how on earth does a Christian convince, say, a secular humanist via reasoned discourse?
“Do you know what Jesus said?”
“Don’t care.”
“How about the bible?”
“Great work of fiction.”
“But you need to be saved.”
“I don’t believe in a soul.”
Drop by Great Debates sometime, if you haven’t already – I’ve been attempting to do precisely that for some time. (But it’s not a “get saved, already!” sort of message, lest you misconstrue my motive.)
Well, I posted in the thread that you linked, but I haven’t seen such a reasoned discussion (and to be honest I still doubt it can exist, religion being inherently irrational).
Truth be told I generally stay out of GD because the people there are smarter and have more facts at their fingertips than I do. But, if you’d be so kind to link to any threads that’re still active and/or any dead threads I could read, I’d appreciate it.
Why try to convince them of anything?
Not that you’re the type to evangelize, but I’ve seriously had conversations like:
“Take Jesus into your heart!”
“Blood will suffice, thanks.”
“Don’t you want to experience the joy and happiness of communion with Christ?”
“I think I’d get plenty of joy and happiness if you’d go away.”
“Well, may God bless you and save you.”
“From what?”
Well, while this thread started out as a riposte to a Drive-By Witness™, and I’m not totally happy with where it ended up, it might be worth perusing. My posts in the recent thread on whether belief can be rational here in the Pit might give you a handle on where I’m coming from in terms of where I found my beliefs and hold them as a reasonable person. I’d enjoy seeing what you think of my perspective and positions after looking at them.
I prefer this answer.
In general I don’t think they do. Most of the cases I’ve encountered of someone going from an atheist/agnostic to religious involved some direct religious or spiritual experience by the person in question, not convincing from an outside source. I’m sure it happens but I’ve never come across it in reading or discussions. I suppose being prostelytized (sp?) might be a catalyst to a religious experience, but I would wonder how common that is. Since the default seems to be to teach kids some kind of religion here (I was dragged to church every week or two when I was a kid), I’d think it would be harder to undo the beliefs of someone who has already reasoned themselves away from it once to begin with.
All attempts to witness to me have either been so subtle as to be completely ineffective and unnoticable, or so obnoxious that it got the psychological equivalent of slamming a door in their face.
There’s a lot to wade through, and I’ll try to find that other Pit thread… I think I may still be subscribed. Also, I just want to emphasize that even rational people can hold irrational positions, and that my beliefs on faith do not reflect on my view of people as individuals.
Now… I think that this breaks down when it steps away from being an ethical philosophy (eg: do unto others) and becomes superstition and conjecture (eg. in order to live forever).
In order to present a reasoned justification for religion, one must get past the fact that belief in something that ammounts to mere semantic noise is irrational. This is, understandably, a hard thing to get past.
I will add, also, that even ‘direct perception’ is not proof.
During the night of january 31st in the year 2000 I had what can only be called an ‘oceanic’ or ‘mystic’ experience. Stone cold sober, and doing nothing special. I felt as if a vast presence of some sort was in touch with me, as if all life had a profound and sublime commonality, as if time itself was an illusion and all matter merely smoke. Moreoever, I had a profoundly visceral sense that there was a great superior being, specifically female, who loved me very much and took special interest in my life.
However. It is important to note several things. First, I am not the only person to have had such an experience. Crowley described his contact as “vast, cool, and unsympathetic.”
It is obviously possible to interpret the same signals differently, and people have been having visions of varying Gods for quite some time now. They can’t all be right. Moreover, the fact that an actual Goddess was talking to me is far, far, far along the course of likely answers.
The first and most likely answer is that it was ‘simply’ a change in consciousness and perception for me. Other (much less likely) models include some sort of actual transmission, but one made by a source which was purposefully claiming to be something else. Then there’s also the (much much less likely) possibility that some supreme being did get in touch with me, but that it isn’t the only supreme being and there are others.
But, by far, the most important conclusion I have come to is that human consciousness is, in and of itself, a miracle. We are the Gods. We are the dreamers of dreams. We are the music makers and the dancers too.
I see perception as creation, I see Universe full to brimming with potential and interconnectivity. I also see no room for a God in any of it. Nor a Goddess. Nor a pantheon of Deities.
YMMV.
Polycarp, what are the reasons behind your belief of Heaven/Hell? A few years back, at the bible study I went to, we discussed the fact that the bible doesn’t really mention hell as a place people really go, but none of us knew anything beyond that. I grew up believing in hell, but I’m doubting it. Still, I’d rather not part with a long-held belief unless there was a compelling reason.
So, why do you believe that people do not go to hell? Do you have any reason other than the fact that it’s not a pleasant belief?
The Hell Clause clearly states that Hell is reserved for those who believe in it, the lowest rung being reserved for those who believe they’ll go there if they don’t believe in it.
The Hell Clause, huh? I never saw that. It must be in the original King James bible. Damn those modern translators, leaving stuff out!
I think you’re making a mistake about why a lot of people post those drive-bys. They have absolutely no interest in converting anyone. They only care about themselves. The witnessing is nothing to do with religion, but it’s done purely to boost the ego of the poster in a petty and trivial way.
The Sermon on the Mount wasn’t a 10 second cut ‘n’ paste job that is posted and forgotten, and neither are the sort of religious debates that you post. Religion is obviously the center of your life, but don’t please confuse your beliefs with drive-bys who seem to believe that the work of Jesus can be summed up with a Ctrl-V.
[QUOTE=Tapioca Dextrin]
I think you’re making a mistake about why a lot of people post those drive-bys. They have absolutely no interest in converting anyone. They only care about themselves. The witnessing is nothing to do with religion, but it’s done purely to boost the ego of the poster in a petty and trivial way.
QUOTE]
That sort is even mentioned in the Bible. This self righteous guy always makes a big show about how good he is, how deserving he is etc. The holier than thou type. His prayer is something like “Oh Lord, I thank you that I am not like other men” (way better than them).
The rest of the story reads just like a good pitting of this guy. :eek:
Or else someone is truly impressed by a religious individual and thinks, “I want to be like THAT person!” You know, you read about say, St. Francis of Assisi, or Oscar Romero, and you feel truly inspired to learn about their faith. Or our own dear Polycarp.
Very true, but I don’t know how compelling that would be a factor to convert. For all intents and purposes, I greatly respect the actual teaching of Jesus (not Bible quotes people use to thump each other over the head with) and in practice I follow a lot, if not most, of them in my real life, but no matter how inspired I am by the good deeds of religious people – and I may emulate them because I think they are great human beings and out of my own altruism – it won’t ever convince me of the supernatural aspect of it. Nothing short of Bog himself coming down and sitting on my couch and watching cartoons with me is going to ever do that.
I have been inspired to study a lot of religions, perhaps because I studied so many and most of them all seem equally valid, makes it impossible for me to subscribe to only one (aside from not being able to believe in the supernatural without evidence).
I am certainly willing to admit that anything is possible, though.
What if God is perception, potential and, especially, interconnectivity?
Since your shift in perception, do you find it a little easier to have an open mind about String Theory? Can you perceive it just a little more easily?
Would you be more likely now to entertain the idea that the infinitely large and the infinitely small are the same?
Even if all that you experienced was a simple shift in perception, what does that say about the “simplicity” of your day to day perception?
As soon as someone begins to describe one of these shifts of perception or “experiences,” I’m always hoping for one particular idea to appear in the description – and it was in yours. That is the theme of unity – interconnectivity.