"We're not at war. War ended a long time ago" says army recruiter

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net]
So you’re being ‘forced’ to work long hours telling lies to high-school kids, and trying to fool them into signing 4 years of their life away. And that makes you feel bad inside. [So don’t do it!]
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Thank you, Mrs. Reagan, I’m sure the “just say no” approach will be as effective at addressing this problem as it was at keeping kids off of drugs.

[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net]
The kids you sucker into the service may be on duty all 24 hours of the day, risking life & limb occupying a foreign country for god knows what reason. With a damn good chance of coming back with physical or mental traumas.
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I’m sure they’d be a lot more upset by that if it didn’t seem like a much better deal than recruiting. Go back and read shizaru’s posts, like the one about the guy who tried to kill himself rather than go into recruiting. When suicide or serving in a war zone sound better than a non-combat job at home, something is WRONG.

22

[QUOTE=A.R. Cane]
Nice sentiments, but they ignore reality. If your in the military you follow orders. There may be some rare instances where you question orders, but recruiting duties sure ain’t one of them. Do you enjoy your fresh fruit and veggies? How much thought do you give to the field workers. Do you like a thick juicy steak, or some fresh sausage? Do you think about how the sausage is made, or what goes on in a slaughter house. Shop at that big box store? Do you care that the checkout girl can’t live on her low wages. I could go on, and on. Get real, you want a strong military to protect this country? Then the military needs recruits. Getting people to sign up in peacetime is hard enough, during a period such as we have now makes it a hell of a challenge.
These guys are giving you a peek at some of the more difficult parts of military life. Too many people take the military for granted, they thing that you just wear a uniform, keep your nose clean, and you get a nice pension after 20 years.
T’aint so my friend, so don’t shoot the messenger! :mad:
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You sir have earned my respect with this post. Bravo.

23

[QUOTE=Cluricaun]
You sir have earned my respect with this post. Bravo.
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Thanks. Sorry about all the typos, I was pissed.

24

[QUOTE=pbbth]
The only experience I ever had with military recruiters was when I was a senior in high school. He called my house and asked if I wanted to join the army and I told him no. He asked what my future plans were and I told him I was going to be a theater major in college. He then proceeded to tell me that the army has a theater program and that I could flourish in their theater department. I think I hung up on him at that point because either he was lying or the military has decided to start wasting money by performing Shakespeare in between attacks. :rolleyes:
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:eek:
Well, he was llying about that.

25

[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net]
I am pleased that I once suggested to a high-school age friend that he ask the recruiter to take all the promises he was making (trained in a specific field, within a year, assigned to a non-combat location in Europe), put them in writing and sign them. That recruiter backtracked so fast he damn near left skid marks.

(Even if the recruiter had done that, I understand it would have no legally binding effect.)
P.S. I find it hard to muster much sympathy for the poor, poor pitiful recruiters posting here.

So you’re being ‘forced’ to work long hours telling lies to high-school kids, and trying to fool them into signing 4 years of their life away. And that makes you feel bad inside. [So don’t do it!]

The kids you sucker into the service may be on duty all 24 hours of the day, risking life & limb occupying a foreign country for god knows what reason. With a damn good chance of coming back with physical or mental traumas. They’re the ones I’d feel sorry for, not you. You participate in an evil enterprise, then whine about how bad it makes you feel.
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First of all, I don’t need your sympathy, so don’t trouble yourself trying to muster it. Someone posted about it, so I told you what I know from having been a recruiter. Someone else asked if I’d tell them a bit more so I did. I never asked you for your sympathy.

And your attittude, believe it or not is part of the problem. Imagine having to do that job and still have to deal with people accussing you of using some kind of jedi mind trick to get people to join. As I said I would have left if the army if they extended me in recruiting. But you can’t quit because recruiters are still in the military. If it was just a civilian job I would have quit, but I didn’t have that luxury. Most recruiters I knew did things the honest way…some didn’t. But don’t label all of them as lying scumbags because they’re not.

And don’t call me fucking evil or my job evil. I’ve been to the gulf. I’ve been fired at before. Did I want to be there? Of course not. Did I like it? Hell no! But I knew when I signed up it was possible that I could get shot up someday in some shithole. I joined the army because I wanted to do something to serve my country. If you have a problem with the current US policy don’t complain to the soldiers complain to your elected officials. They make the decisions, the military has to carry out its orders.

Did the recruiters in these news stories do bad shit? Yeah. But take a step back and think about who your bitching at right now. Are you upset with all recruiters, or the one in the news or the creators of the War in Iraq. Find out who can change the stuff and call them “evil” if you like, but try to have a little respect for the troops…and believe it or not, recruiters are part of the troops.

26

[QUOTE=A.R. Cane]
If your in the military you follow orders.
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But are the officers actually giving orders to “lie to them to get them to recruit”? And if so, would higher officers uphold such orders?

He even mentions that his first station commander “did everything by the book” and that Sgt. S. ‘absolutely refused to do anything dishonest’, so it can be done honestly.

[QUOTE=A.R. Cane]
Do you enjoy your fresh fruit and veggies? How much thought do you give to the field workers. Do you like a thick juicy steak, or some fresh sausage? Do you think about how the sausage is made, or what goes on in a slaughter house. Shop at that big box store? Do you care that the checkout girl can’t live on her low wages. I could go on, and on.
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I don’t understand this part at all – how is it relevant to military recruitment?

[QUOTE=A.R. Cane]
Get real, you want a strong military to protect this country? Then the military needs recruits.
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I do want a strong military. But I don’t see how telling lies to fool kids into enlisting makes it strong.
I think our military would be stronger if we just told them the truth: that it’s a tough job, but we need some people to take it on.

[QUOTE=A.R. Cane]
Getting people to sign up in peacetime is hard enough, during a period such as we have now makes it a hell of a challenge.
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Certainly true, because the people we want as recruits aren’t dumb. And it is easier to sign them up if we lie to them.
But that doesn’t make it right.

[QUOTE=A.R. Cane]
These guys are giving you a peek at some of the more difficult parts of military life. Too many people take the military for granted, they thing that you just wear a uniform, keep your nose clean, and you get a nice pension after 20 years.
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I know that.
I have worked in a county Veterans Service Office, helping vets get the benefits & medical care they deserve (and were promised). I’ve had to deal with kids who’ve come back from the service with a lifetime disabling disease, and who aren’t even 20 years old yet.

Here in Minneapolis, we have one of 3 Vet Hospitals in the nation that provide care to severely disabled blast trauma injuries. I’ve seen the struggles they have re-learning to do such simple things as feed themselves. And the struggles of their family to cope with this. It is incredible what some young men and women have sacrificed for us.

That is a far more “difficult” part of military life than the feelings of recruiters who feel bad because they know they are lying to potential recruits.

If we want to talk about the value of a strong military, and the sacrifices people make to keep it strong, we should start a new thread.

The OP here was about recruiters telling lies to get people to join up, and disapproval of such lies.

27

[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net]
But are the officers actually giving orders to “lie to them to get them to recruit”? And if so, would higher officers uphold such orders?

He even mentions that his first station commander “did everything by the book” and that Sgt. S. ‘absolutely refused to do anything dishonest’, so it can be done honestly.

I don’t understand this part at all – how is it relevant to military recruitment?

I do want a strong military. But I don’t see how telling lies to fool kids into enlisting makes it strong.
I think our military would be stronger if we just told them the truth: that it’s a tough job, but we need some people to take it on.

Certainly true, because the people we want as recruits aren’t dumb. And it is easier to sign them up if we lie to them.
But that doesn’t make it right.
I know that.
I have worked in a county Veterans Service Office, helping vets get the benefits & medical care they deserve (and were promised). I’ve had to deal with kids who’ve come back from the service with a lifetime disabling disease, and who aren’t even 20 years old yet.

Here in Minneapolis, we have one of 3 Vet Hospitals in the nation that provide care to severely disabled blast trauma injuries. I’ve seen the struggles they have re-learning to do such simple things as feed themselves. And the struggles of their family to cope with this. It is incredible what some young men and women have sacrificed for us.

That is a far more “difficult” part of military life than the feelings of recruiters who feel bad because they know they are lying to potential recruits.

If we want to talk about the value of a strong military, and the sacrifices people make to keep it strong, we should start a new thread.

The OP here was about recruiters telling lies to get people to join up, and disapproval of such lies.
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Your hearts in the right place, but don’t blame all recruiters because of the lies **some of them ** tell. First of all, the lies I’ve seen in the news stories are so fantastic its hard to believe anyone falls for them. (but people fall for email scams so I guess anything is possible) But you know, some people actually say “YES” when asked if they want to join. And we (meaning myself and my coworkers in recruiting) didn’t lie to them. Please don’t imply that we did, because it ain’t true.

And SGT S? you know what they nailed him for? You can’t join the military if you have any open law violations…even if its a simple unpaid parking ticket. Our mission deadline was up and S had a guy that wanted to join but he had a traffic ticket he hadn’t paid. The guy was going to pay it in a few days, but in order to make mission they needed him to join NOW. The guy was willing to join as soon as possible, and traffic tickets DON’T SHOW UP on our routine police checks. But it is against the regulations to sign him up until its paid and S wouldn’t do it. His integrity was more important than making mission and rightly so. So he yes, he did the right thing, and all he got out of it was extra training, a reprimand for not making mission and a “get yelled at session”.

Again…if you feel so strongly about the guys and girls that are getting hurt while serving don’t blame the recruiters. They don’t have any control of where anyone is assigned or whther they go to Iraq or not. Blame the people that were elected and made the decision to invade Iraq.

And remember what I said above…recruiters are picked from people that have been in for at least 10 years. Many of them out there now HAVE BEEN TO IRAQ. I’ve got friends that didn’t make it out of the Pentagon on 9/11. 3 of the guys I recruited with are in Iraq RIGHT NOW. My buddy SGT G has three fuckin’ kids and he’s over there now and I hope to God he makes it back intact to see his family again cuz he’s a good man and a good friend. He missed seeing his kids grow up a lot because of recruiting yet he’s in the Middle East right now doing what he was trained to do. Don’t tell me he’s evil and a liar.

At first I was going to stay out of this thread because I knew sooner or later someone would start blaming all recruiters and calling us all liars and scumbags. I wasn’t trying to excuse any wrongdoings in recruiting I was only explaining why some people do it.

28

I haven’t read the linked to story, but I have read the thread.

20 years ago, I was graduating high school, had no money for college and thought about joining the military. I had taken the ASVAB and aced it. Really. I don’t remember the exact score, but I remember them telling me I scored in the top 99%. I talked to most of the branches of military and I have to say, they certainly didn’t seem eager to recruit me. Not one ever called me. They gave me vague answers about what kind of opportunities would be available to me.

Then again, I’m a woman. I really did NOT want to join the military to be a secretary, and honestly, they pretty much made it sound like that is what I would be stuck doing. I actually was quite interested in cryptography.

It is interesting to me to see the kind of techniques/quotas/pressures you guys are under, since from MY experience, the recruiters I talked to pretty much talked me out of it.

I’ve always wondered why I had that experience, I had no geographic ties, decent physical shape (if anything,underweight) good vision, good grades and a kick ass ASVAB score. Was it because I am a woman? I know now there are a ton of women in the military, but this was 20 years ago.

Now as to the tactics SOME recruiters use and the pressures it seems most of them need to tolerate. If they are getting guys who have 10 years in, they are pretty well indoctrinated into the “follow orders” routine. They can see a full retirement in the horizon and they are probably in a comfortable enough paygrade. Standing outside that rather unique environment, I think it is easy to judge. Not very easy to understand. Hearing just these few tales of the life of a recruiter gives me the shivers. Good people trying to do a job they have very little choice but to obey under very trying conditions. They weren’t throwing people into ovens. They were trying to convince them to do what they themselves have done.

Sitting here at 38 and realizing if one of those folks had taken me seriously I could already have my exit papers, a full retirement and I dunno, health benefits really make me wish I could have joined. Some days, I still think about it.

Thanks you guys, for doing your best. I wish someone had done their best when I was talking to them. Heck, even if they had lied to me a bit, I would have probably been happier.

29

[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
Sitting here at 38 and realizing if one of those folks had taken me seriously I could already have my exit papers, a full retirement and I dunno, health benefits really make me wish I could have joined. Some days, I still think about it.
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Of course, you could also have been dead or maimed, or have Post Traumatic Stress related psychological issues. So maybe it worked out for the best.

30

[QUOTE=Revtim]
Of course, you could also have been dead or maimed, or have Post Traumatic Stress related psychological issues. So maybe it worked out for the best.
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Or she could be sitting in her home in Bavaria remembering that she retires in a few years from the military and she hasn’t been maimed or have those issues. I mean, after all, I am and so are the rest of the personnel here. Because, you know, we all don’t jump out of planes with guns a’blazing.

The military ain’t for everyone, but that doesn’t mean that everyone in it has to get hurt and maimed. I have injuries but I got them from falling down while fixing a vehicle of all things. :frowning: In a parking lot. Not very heroic I know, but I hit the ground in just the right way to smoosh a nerve in a neck. But at least I don’t have to pay for my medical bills.

AuntBeast, it may have been that 20 years ago they didn’t have a hard time filling the mission. I don’t know, since I was in college then. But if that was the case they probably didn’t need to come on too strong to any one person.

31

[QUOTE=shizaru]
Or she could be sitting in her home in Bavaria remembering that she retires in a few years from the military and she hasn’t been maimed or have those issues. I mean, after all, I am and so are the rest of the personnel here. Because, you know, we all don’t jump out of planes with guns a’blazing.
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Of course. I was just pointing out that since very bad things also could have happened, she shouldn’t feel too bad about possibly missing the good things.

32

I’m wondering where BearNenno is in this thread. Didn’t he get thrown into recruiting, to his horror?

Shizaru, yours is interesting testimony. Can I ask where you did your recruiting? It’s said to be the case that here in the Northeast it’s particularly tough for the recruiters. Other places I imagine it’s a lot easier.

33

[QUOTE=pbbth]
The only experience I ever had with military recruiters was when I was a senior in high school. He called my house and asked if I wanted to join the army and I told him no. He asked what my future plans were and I told him I was going to be a theater major in college. He then proceeded to tell me that the army has a theater program and that I could flourish in their theater department. I think I hung up on him at that point because either he was lying or the military has decided to start wasting money by performing Shakespeare in between attacks. :rolleyes:
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When I was in HS, a Navy band came to our school to rock the house. I thought they were sort of lame, but a friend of mine was entranced. He totally fell for their “Join the Navy, and you’ll be in a band” thing. There was no reluctance in his signing up. The recruiter made all sorts of promises about how he’d be in a band. He signed up. Then he had to audition. Needless to say, he never jammed during his entire 4-year hitch.

34

[QUOTE=Revtim]
Of course. I was just pointing out that since very bad things also could have happened, she shouldn’t feel too bad about possibly missing the good things.
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Yeah, you’re right. I’ve had a pretty good time overall, but there are times when I wonder what’d my life be like if I hadn’t joined the military. One funny thing is, I was in the National Guard initially, then decided to go on active duty. My former guard unit beat me to Suadi Arabia and they were still there when I left! A lot of people join the NG thinking they’ll never deploy, but I think current times have squelched that assumption.

Sal Ammoniac, I was in New Jersey. I really hated it there too. (no offense to any Jersey Dopers out there). I have a cousin there and I told her that barring a family emergency I’d never set foot in that state again. I’ve heard it was easier to recruit in the south, but I’m from the Delaware/ Maryland Area. I wanted to be close to familiar surroundings if I had to recruit. But no, they sent me to Jersey instead of my home town.

Tdn, sorry your friend didn’t get to play the music he wanted. A lot of people I knew in the Army Bands joined the band because they were into classical music. I guess it depends on where you get stationed to. I knew a guy in the band when I worked at the Pentagon. They lived large. Since they travelled a lot they got a giant cost of living bonus. Naturally the only duty they had was to play music.

Back to the OP, I can’t believe the recruiter in that story even told such a feeble and stupid lie. Does anyone remember back in 2005 when that one kid filmed his recruiter blatantly breaking laws and lying in order to get him in? After that I figured no one else would be stupid enough to try mind games. Admittedly, I was leaving recruiting when that story happened so I really didn’t care. Its a very long story, but Recruiting Command tried to rope me in and they screwed up getting my orders for months. I refuse to believe it was a mere error. The Inspector General got involved and I got my order the next day after I had called them. Thats why I know Recruiting Command was “fucking” with me. They were hard up for more recruiters so they didn’t want to let anyone go. I was supposed to leave in March and didn’t leave until July. But since they had delayed my orders I literally stopped working in mid may. (Which tells me more…since they didn’t do anything about that…think about it…I didn’t go to work…yet the command said nothing. Because they didn’t want to attract the attention of the IG I’m thinking.) I have no real proof of that, its just the vibe I got. Thats why I really don’t believe any high ranking mofo from Recruiting Command on TV saying they didn’t know about the improprieties. I’m biased, obviously, but seriously, they know bad stuff happens, they just don’t do anything about it as long as no one gets caught because it puts 'em boots.

I should stop now. I had a lot of pent up rage after leaving recruiting, and I am still a bit angry at Recruiting Command. (Did you know they actually had us go to work on Christmas Eve? A full work day on Christmas Eve. They wanted us to cold call people. Even our hard ass Station Commander thought that was ridiculous. We didn’t call anyone, we just faked it up so HQ thought we did. I can still barely believe that happened, but it did.) It took me nearly a year to start acting like my old self, my wife tells me. I promised her to not dwell on that stuff anymore because it was making me very cranky. Just to clarify though, I’m not angry at the Army, just Recruiting Command, they’re practically their own little entity.

35

Recruiting is the worst fucking thing the military has to offer. I can’t believe fuckers volunteer for it.
I fought the Army for over three months to get off recruiting assignment. I had to convince them that I was a shitty NCO and a criminal and a credit risk. I had my commander sign papers saying what a shitbag I am, I faxed them all the documents on my DUI and other shit, and indulged my credit history survey to show how financially unstable I am. . .

Thank god it worked.

36

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
Recruiting is the worst fucking thing the military has to offer. I can’t believe fuckers volunteer for it.
I fought the Army for over three months to get off recruiting assignment. I had to convince them that I was a shitty NCO and a criminal and a credit risk. I had my commander sign papers saying what a shitbag I am, I faxed them all the documents on my DUI and other shit, and indulged my credit history survey to show how financially unstable I am. . .

Thank god it worked.
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Good Heavens! I couldn’t have said it better, Bear! One day we’ll have to compare notes on the morons that do volunteer and convert to it. (For any non-military folks, convert means change your original job to full time recruiting…as in instead of doing your recruiting stint for a fewyears and going back to being a technician or infantry or whatever you become a recruiter FOREVER!)

I was to “I’m an NCO, I don’t run from my orders” when I got to recruiting school. But one guy I met there purposely gained weight and failed his physical to get out of it. Man, he was right. The one teeny bad NCOER he propbaly got was a good tradeoff for several years of pain. So you never actually had to recruit, Bear?