What are Christian principles and values? Do they actually exist?

Great Debates
181

Ah, I get you. I misunderstood and thought you meant “spiritual discernment” to mean the ability to tell what is good or bad by ourselves, rather than the ability to sense the spirit world at all.

Well, I would imagine leading into destructive activites doesn’t rule out God being behind it, since he seems to have done that with people at least a few times in the Bible.

Besides, I imagine it can’t be God giving me that sense, since if it was, I’d be a believer. Either God’s gift isn’t that good (which wouldn’t make sense) or i’m pretty much only influenced by demons.

I notice you aren’t denying my suggestions that you’re a world soul Christian. I think you’re wrong in suggesting the concept is inherently occultish, in the same manner that the idea of a messiah can be occultish but can also be Christian.

Ah, so it needs to be purposefully doing his will?

Logically, then, if you require the indwelling of God in order to discern his will, and only believers have this indwelling, is it fair to say that unbelievers (such as myself) cannot possibly know God’s will?

I think I see a problem here. Unbelievers cannot know God’s will. Events may happen to change their minds, to the point where they believe God does exist. However, because unbelievers may not know God’s will, what they initially believe to be his will (and their motivation for becoming believers) can’t be right. So they can’t be true believers. In fact, there doesn’t appear to be any way for an unbeliever to become a believer; since in order to believe in God they need to know about him, and they cannot know about him if they aren’t believers. IOW, it’s impossible for me to believe in the true God. Only people who literally believe in God from birth (and so are at no point unbelievers) can *possibly * be true believers.

Yes, that would be bad. That’s what I was saying; Satan could get the demons to do good works because he could end up with more bad overall. Like, getting a demon to save someone’s life (good) knowing that that person will go on to persuade Christians away from God (bad). I was just pointing out one reason why demons might actually do good.

Is there anything stopping demons from loving God?

182

According to you; I’m afraid you aren’t the Overlord of Christianity, and can’t define who gets to qualify as Christian. And which “Christian principles” ? Interpeted how ?

Unless Christ is Borg, they are nothing of the sort. And given the level of disagreement, contradictions and outright warfare between Christians, this “body of Christ” needs therapy for spilt personality and self abuse.

Not noticably.

That’s outright nonsense. Women have been ignored or treated as garbage/property/evil in any number of Christian societies; it is a religion notorious for it’s general hostility towards women. Christian societies have most certainly not been especially open to the participation of women. And “modesty” has often meant things like “force or browbeat people to wear Mother Hubbards in tropical climates even if it kills them”.

You seem to be trying to equate “Christian values” with “modern liberal democracies”, and claiming the credit for their virtues for Christ. Another example of the common “Christian value” of stealing the credit.

183

Follow in what sense of the word? By using his name or by striving to live in the way he instructed? Gandhi was a Hindu but admired the words of Jesus and probably lived according to his teachings more than most self proclaimed Christians do. Was he in the body?

I take this to be an opinion statement. On what basis or what experience do you make a statement like this. I find this to be completely non factual and without evidence.

Look at the principles of what Jesus taught and what Buddha taught relating to how we live in the world and relate to each other. They teach almost identical principles and values.

I think you’re fooling yourself. What has been accepted as Christian standards has changed as society has changed. It seems pretty clear that what was considered proper concerning modesty has changed and certainly the role of women in society and the church has drastically changed. There are still several denominations that refuse to let women be ordained. Christianity supported slavery for centuries and the repression of womans rights.
Once again, this may be your personal opinion but I don’t think you have a factual leg to stand on.

184

whoopsie double post :o

185

Again in a strange way everything done is God’s will, but allows for free will. There is no real way to know what God really wants done without God telling you, but God can compensate for those who haven’t submitted their will to Him. So yes it needs to be purposeful AFAIK.

And the rest of your post…

A person on the verge of becoming a believer will usually find other believers (or they will find them), they will help lead the person from darkness to light - they will use the gifts of the Holy Spirit and relay that information to the one seeking, and protect that person from the enemy. This step is one of blind faith, leading to repentance and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

186

Don’t worry about the first part, i’m a great believer that determinism and free will can both exist.

This on the face of it certainly seems to work; by trusting someone who is already a believer, a person can make a leap of faith into believing those believers (it’s not a leap of faith into believing God, because they still don’t know him at that point), and so gain actual knowledge of God. Makes sense.

Slight problem though; where did these believers come from? You can say that it keeps on going back, with believers helping unbelievers, but there must have been a point where there were no believers at all. Even with an unbroken line of true believers, there would need to be a starting point.

Plus this would tend to suggest that no person could become a believer if there are no believers around. If (and I am in no way suggesting this) all true believers were killed, that’s it, the line would end. And it relies on the believers the unbelievers finds on being “true” believers; since the unbeliever cannot have any knowledge of God’s specifics, they are just as likely to go towards Jewish or Islamic believers as anyone else. And my main problem with it stands; I don’t think a leap of faith, especially a leap of faith where you can know nothing about where you are leaping to, is a good idea. It’s a system which means you are equally likely to leap towards Satan as you are to God.

187

Bold mine, the starting point is Jesus:

  • NIV
188

God would not allow this, this is the blessing of Abraham - God’s unconditional promise.

This would seem to be true, I don’t have a answer. Demonic power is (fallen) angelic power and does seem very powerful to man and is deceptive. Even the enemy will be raising people from the dead to help the deception. (I referring to false religions here in general)

Honestly it doesn’t seem to be a good idea to me either. One possible clarification is that a person who does make a incorrect leap will experience increased satanic bondage, if they recognize that, which is very hard but possible, they can appeal to God and He will usually rescue them - a trip that is usually horrible however.

189

I’m not certain your quote actually refers to this situation, but you have a good point. I’m not certain on your particular views as to what extent Jesus was God and Man, so I suppose it rests on that; if Jesus did not know God’s will, then he was (technically) not a true believer either. But if he was, which would be reasonable, we’re still stuck with the idea that there must be an unbroken line of true believers. From Jesus to the apostles and downwards each generation of believers needs to have got across the exact same information and help. Certainly possible, and while I would say it’s farfetched I imagine were I a believer it would certainly be within God’s power.

I’m afraid i’ve not heard of this blessing before… could you give me a cite from scripture? (I apologise for keeping asking this; I always seem to make you do work when we’re arguing :P). Hypothetically, were there a single believer still alive, he or she could gain immortality for themselves by simply not helping anyone to believe also. Of course, being true believers, they would believe they have immortality anyway, so it’s a pretty moot point.

Hmm. A thought; presumably God’s power is entirely not deceptive. And we are unable to tell one from the other until we truly believe. Logically then, demonic power would appear to be more effective and we should expect that most people would not be true believers. And actually that seems reflected in reality, since specifically most people in the world hold beliefs different to yours and in fact there is no religion that has a majority of the world as adherents.

How may it be recognised if Man has no spiritual discernment?

I do have a more general question. If you think like me it’s possibly not all that good an idea, and you agree that it’s very easy for people to mistakenly believe in false religions, do you not think that says anything about God’s drive to make himself known? I would have thought that a being that wants itself to be known would have a better system than this.

190

I might consider the starting point to be the willingness and need to question and wonder. The desire to ask questions about our purpose and nature and then follow where that leads.

What if you just found a book and there are no “believers” around? Could the book {any book} stimulate that desire to know?

Not to side track your discussion with KB but just to add a perspective. I think the presence of other believers has a lot to do with the direction an individuals spiritual quest takes. Peer influence which varies greatly depending on the person being influenced and the forcefulness of the influence. Some groups are much more rigid than others on the details of what you have to believe and what ideas you are not allowed to entertain. I think it’s all too easy for a novice to be influenced by a group and adopt their beliefs without questioning. Social influences , parental influences all similar.

A person has to have a certain inner courage to search themselves about what they personally believe and what they value and to claim that right in the face of group pressure and other outside influences.

191

I get the sense that you’re exploring a particular area with a specific poster so I won’t be offended if you’d rather not discuss other perspectives,…and yet I’ll offer mine anyway :slight_smile:

IMHO and in simple terms, we all already have a spiritual connection to God and each other that is a basic undeniable truth about our nature as beings. This basic truth is often covered and denied by the illusions offered by this temporary physical world and different cultures and societies. I think we all do have spiritual discernment that is also covered and often denied. Perhaps we see this reflected in what we call our conscience. Our inner connection , the Holy Spirit, calls to us to wake up and see through the illusions but we resist and choose to embrace the illusions as reality for various reasons. We begin with the desire to wake up, the hope, or belief that we actually can, and we travel our individual path from there.

Does it seem inefficient or unnecessarily cruel? What are we comparing it to?

As a parent I realize that although I try to help my kids avoid the rough spots and the mistakes, if I want them to develop into responsible adults, I have to let them be responsible and learn through their own choices.

192

(Re: Alpha and Omega) I don’t think I’ll convince you, but IMHO is it exactly the reference. God was in the beginning when everything was split (man/man, man/ god, man/woman, angel/man, As man multiplied God started His plan to reunite man to God, and man will be one with God in the end. Jesus’ lineage traces back to Adam and Eve then to God, so Jesus was/is/and will be the beginning. When Jesus marries His church we will become adpoted sons and daughters of God, Jesus was/is and will be the end.

Jesus is God, Jesus was fully man and fully God for about 33 years.

Why is this far fetched? You would think that once it dies out it would be gone for good. RT if you are truly searching I would suggest not looking to the pointy buildings, but be open and seek the true love of openness of believers. In my experience (true) Christianity, the type that worships and experiences the living God is in His people. True worship and interaction with God is usually done in the homes. We usually are untrusting about their motives, this is where the leap of faith comes in. In my experience this is how Christianity is really spread.

It is a bit more complex then that as God blessed both sons with the above, one line holds the believers (Isaac) and the other non-beleivers (Esog?<sp>)

Isaac was the son that God promised Abraham and Sarah, short summary: When Sarah was way beyond childbearing age she had Abraham sleep with another Herra? <sp> to produce a child in a attempt in the flesh to make God’s promise come real. This produced Esog, but this was not the plan of God, later Sarah did conceive and had Issac. Both lines were blessed with the above, but only Isaac’s line is anointed. This is what the ongoing conflict is about (to modern day times IMHO)

193

Even look at the churchs themselfs, Believers are truely a minority, ‘for the harvest is great but the workers are few’ - indirect quote from Lord Jesus.

It’s a give from God, or a so called ‘gift’ of fallen angels depending on the side.

‘His ways are not your ways’ It’s something you come to accept, God knows best. It comes along the way. From my limited view yeah, I’d like God to be more open with unbelievers, so much pain would be avoided, but I have learned to trust Him more then myself.

194

Sure, i’m with you on that. And yes, I think that a book could certainly stimulate interest, but the problem is whether or not we are able to recognise truth, whether it comes from a book or from other people or from a god directly. Either we can or we can’t; logically since the possibility exists that we can’t, and if we can’t then we can’t evaluate this problem correctly, we have to accept the chance that we won’t ever know whether we can recognise truth or not. I don’t think there’s anyway to know for certain.

I get where you’re going with this, but I wouldn’t go that far. You shouldn’t not be open to other people trying to persuade you otherwise. I would say ideally we should be open to all criticism, whether it’s spite-filled invective from nutcases or reasoned debate. It should all be evaluated the same. You might decide that the insults are pointless and without merit, but they shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand, no matter how unpleasant the delivery or the deliverer.

Always happy to! I get worried sometimes that i’m just always attacking others, so it’s nice to be questioned.

I would say that the system kanicbird believes in (if I understand it) does appear unnecessarily cruel and inefficient. I think the biggest obstacle to me being a believer (aside from me not actually feeling anything from anyone upstairs) is that i’ve never heard of a system like this that I couldn’t see improvements for. That a human could see a better way than a god doesn’t really work (unless we’re talking fun ancient pantheon gods, who were generally much less infallible), so I tend to assume there aren’t any. It’s true that my limited ability could just mean I don’t see the grand plan, and that’s a fair answer. But I don’t believe systems that look, to me, horribly inefficient do a good job of getting me to believe, and generally that’s supposed to be the idea.

Certainly. But you’d make sure they understood the consequences of their choices. If they weren’t able to tell what happens if they drink and drive or take drugs, I doubt you’d be so willing to let them make those choices.

195

Oh, I don’t doubt that it refers to God being the beginning and end of it all. That’s what I think it means. I’m just not certain it refers to Jesus as being the first and the last believer, specifically.

Generally I would have said that being man and being God were incompatible, but ok. I suppose a better question would be, “Did Jesus know God’s will?”.

Well, I would say it’s farfetched just because I find it difficult to believe that there is such an unbroken line. It has been almost 2000 years. The message and interpretations of that message appear to have changed so much over the years that I can’t honestly think there are people practicing and learning exactly what Jesus taught all those years ago. But then, i’m a cynic. :wink:

Abraham and Sarah is one of the few Bible stories I know! Excuse me while I enjoy this very brief moment of knowledge. :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway, it could be argued that that blessing has already been fulfilled. Having many descendants has been fulfilled. Taking possession of the cities of their enemies… hmm. Don’t know enough to know who the enemies are, or what taking ownership means exactly. But I certainly see nothing that implies there will always be believers.

But the Holy Spirit is gifted only to believers.

Why? I suppose this is the big question really, but you do seem to have some issues where you think the system might not be the best. Why do you place that trust.

196

I think we can eventually recognize the truth but it can be a long and convoluted path. In a somewhat recent thread about faith I realized that the classic Christian
passage

doesn’t have to mean never questioning doctrine or or our own limited understanding. We must question to progress. It means IMHO that when we act we must act as if certain things were true. We go forward acting upon what we understand to be right and true up to this point, and can still be open to new information and new experiences to reevaluate our notion of what is true, what is right. So I may act with the concept that love in the sense of universal oneness is the ultimate goal and that is where my faith lies. I act with certainty because of faith and await a new experience and new insight to help me understand the details of exactly what love is.

Years ago I held more traditional Christian beliefs and at the time I was being true to myself within my own limited understanding and experience. Now, for me to embrace those beliefs would be acting against what I hold to be true and personally dishonest.
We may accept that it isn’t likely we will discover all there is in this limited lifetime and what may wait beyond is a moot point. We don’t know and don’t need to know to make our efforts worthwhile. So, for me, even recognizing the possibility of being incorrect I still must act on what I believe to be true, and of worth. That’s faith.

Of course we should be open to considering the insight of others. Our interaction with each other is a crucial part of the learning experience. I understand my own beliefs better when they are effectively challenged and I am forced to examine and explain them. I’m saying that as people we tend to go through a phase where we seek the guidance and input of others. We recognize that they have more knowledge and experience in a certain area. At some point, in our personal journey, we must take full responsibility for our personal beliefs without looking to others to tell us what is right. In some organized religion people seem to defer to tradition and the words of those with certain titles far to long. Wanting to be a part of a certain group is a powerful influence to suppress questions and critical thinking.

I doubt that any religious system can really contain the big picture. I really enjoyed investigating different religions and finding the common thread that seemed to run through them. For me it was interesting to note that even Charlatans who pretend to be the new prophet or religious leader sent from God can offer something that is sincerely meaningful to those who follow them. It’s the sincerity of the seekers heart that matters not always the teachers. What’s happened to me is that a lot of what is contained within the doctrine and dogma of organized religion has become categorized as “doesn’t really matter” and it’s down to how we interact with others on a day to day moment to moment basis that counts. There’s lot’s of interesting ideas to explore and entertain but if they don’t affect how you interact with others then it “doesn’t really matter”

I’m not sure I was ever able to make them understand the consequences of their choices. What I think got across was that there are consequences to choices and even if you try to avoid and deny them, they eventually catch up to you in some form.

Such as, you thought you got away with several fibs and avoided some problems. but when you got caught in that other fib the cost in trust made the others not worth it. Now you have to start building trust all over again. As much as I preached and advised and warned the final teacher was their own experience, and personal discovery. They tested to see if what I had told them seemed true.

I don’t see God as some distant all powerful being we have to supplicate to and please. I see God as the whole that we are already a part of. IMHO living apart form that truth carries consequences that we cannot avoid. That inner connection and those experiences will eventually turn us toward the truth.

197

God would be by default a believer (I am that I am), so we do see that reflected by that statement of Jesus. The scriptures really do speak to a unbroken line up to Jesus, which starts a new line while continuing the old.

After baptism by John, Jesus received the Holy Spirit, at this point He knew God’s will for Him as He needed to know, He followed God’s Spirit wherever He lead Him. Knowing God’s will does not mean knowing everything, as Jesus as man did not.

The enemies are each other Isaac/Esog, reflected later as God/Satan. I don’t know of any reference that goes along the lines that there will always at every moment of time be believers.

As a permanent indwelling, yes this is my understanding.

An interesting aside, casting lots was a way of deteminging the will of God, all the way to Acts. This last ‘cast’ was right before the Gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, after which time the Believers used the Holy Spirit.

Personal reasons, God has shown me where my ways will lead to, and how little I can really see. Following God will allow wonderious things to happen, paths open up you could never see on your own. You learn to trust God and distrust yourself.

198

I’m not certain what you mean. If you’re saying you accept a sort of foundation through faith, leading to questioning the form of that foundation, I would agree. But I would go further; even foundations need to be questioned, not only in terms of specifics but whether they actually work at all. A foundation of my beliefs is athiesm, but i’m willing to go further than just a questioning of the structure of that athiesm. Considering whether a god or gods exist is still important, even if that would mean i’m entirely wrong about everything. Quite likely I am. :slight_smile:

I agree. While I think we can never be certain we’re right, we have to go with what we think is so (keeping questioning, of course). I would hope that if there is any deity up there, if they’re good they’re taking that into account (if they’re bad, we’re screwed, but hey, we’re screwed either way so it doesn’t matter ;)).

I understand what you mean. Even being open to others is potentially problematic, because if you’re confronted with the same ideas over and over again, they’re going to look better than they maybe are. So yeah, I think you’re right in that deferring even to people who appear more knowledgable than us can be risky. Like you say, there is a point at which we need to be willing to sort of be certain in the face of others without actually being too certain. I’m not really sure where that line is drawn, though.

Actually, I tend to believe that if there is a true faith, it could be constrained by a religion, just based on the idea that a good deity would be understanding of what we’re like and so give us something that we can understand. But that’s a possibility that I think because of our nature of adding things I don’t believe is likely to come about. Looking at the common thread as you’ve done seems to me to be a very good way of trying to get at what isn’t the man-made stuff.

That’s what I mean, really. But as you’re actually a parent I think i’m going to have to defer to you on this one! :wink:

I would say that if a good god exists, then I think your way of how the universe works seems a pretty decent one. I don’t believe your premise, but if I accepted it, I’d probably go with your conclusions, too.

199

I’m sure you’re right about there being an unbroken line up to and after Jesus (I seem to rememeber a lot of “begats” in the Bible). I’m just questioning whether this was a line who taught exactly the same things up to Jesus, Jesus then changing some parts, and then continuing on exactly the same as before. I don’t believe that what is being taught today is exactly the same as what Jesus taught. Logically since believers should know God’s will at least as well as the apostles, there is likely to be some influx of false believers in there somewhere. But it’s certainly a possibility. I’m not saying it couldn’t happen at all.

Yes, I understand you. I suppose then that Jesus gaining the Holy Spirit was a one-time special thing; the problems of unbelievers not becoming believers applies to him too if there was a point where he did not know God’s will. But if this is one of the areas in which he’s different to just man, fair enough, it works.

Then it is possible that all believers could be killed? Again, this is not something I would want or would be happy about.

Ah, so it’s possible for the Holy Spirit to temporarily inhabit a person? Is this only in situations where it would help to save them from demonic influence, or are there other situations where this might happen?

I think I remember that particular part, actually. Makes sense, really; God could either have originally created the world in order to enforce the result he was after, or intervene directly at that time.

Oh, I certainly distrust myself. I look around and I see plenty of people who know things, and then others who know something that is contradictory, and then a third group who believe yet another thing. It’s clear that we can’t trust ourselves when it comes to things we know. I never trust anything that I know. But i’m still not willing to blindly leap at an unknown target.

200

Before Jesus, man was instructed to follow the law of Moses, this is the standard man would have to reach to be sinless, this was what man aspired to (be worthy on their own w/o God, or to be their own ‘god’), but something impossible with man (except for Jesus). Jesus did change the rules, we are now under grace of God not the law of Moses.

For organized religion I’d agree, but if you go deeper I think you will see the oneness with the Father, how the whole Bible agrees and resonates with a common message - that of Love beyond comprehension.

As you pointed out there are plenty of false teachers.

I don’t believe that this would be allowed, though I can’t think of a iron clad scripture right now, but seek and you shall find comes to mind, if all are dead you can not find them.

Yes it arguably happened with King David IIRC

In OT times Satan was not yet condemned so demons were not necessarily evil, so the need for God’s indwelling as His Spirit was perhaps not needed.

Also I suspect that the Holy Spirit may temp indwell a non-believer for God’s purpose in NT times, but I don’t know this.

Better get yourself a God then :slight_smile:

May I suggest a simple prayer when your ready:

God, most high, I do not know you but desire to know you. Please make Yourself real to me, lead me to You and show me the way. Also God most high please prevent any false ‘gods’ from deceiving me along the way. So be it, Amen

If you feel like you can I’d add ‘in Jesus’ name I pray’ right before So be it, Amen but at this stage I don’t think it would be needed for you as Jesus is God.