No, it takes someone with a larger picture of what is happening. Things are not always as they seem. But if you try to live in love you will see that larger picture.
We did get off on a tangent but I thought the essentials were covered although not to a final definite conclusion on such a subjective subject.
Following the OP several people pointed out that just because values aren’t unique to Christianity doesn’t mean they aren’t Christian values. So, while “love they neighbor” may be taught by other religions and was taught before JC preached it by Buddha , it is still a Christian value.
I have conceded this point as true so, Christian values in a non unique sense do exist.
The point I tried to stress and was discussed is that often the terms, Christian Values, or Christian principles, is used in modern language to indicate that adding “Christian” somehow improves the value and is used to infer that Christianity somehow is the keeper of the flame when it comes to values and principles above all other groups. When you hear the phrase “this country was founded on Christian principles” does it seem as if it’s stressing "with liberty and justice for all"or it is stressing the Christian bit? My question is what does the term Christian add in descriptive value to values and principles? IMHO not a thing. When used among Christians speaking to Christians it seems relatively harmless. When used by Christians speaking to non Christians it is used to infer the superiority of Christianity which IMO, is one thing that clearly does not exist.
Der Trihs made a valuable point by noting that many recognized Christian leaders demonstrate some values and principles that many people consider negative or even downright hateful. Should we at least consider these when weighing the usefulness of those terms? I think so. If we can’t tell if Christian values are negative or positive then aren’t those two terms pretty much information free and meaningless? In a broad in general way we know that “brotherly love” and “turn the other cheek” etc might be seen as Christian principles but when we get down to really thinking about the impact of those terms as used in modern language do they really have any meaning when it comes to a discussion of actual values and principles or are they used more to stress a particular religion? IMO, obviously the latter.
bolding mine
biblical cite?
Do you think so? How do you determine the leading of the HS? I understand feeling strongly led toward something but I’d be reluctant to assert that it’s by the HS. Sometimes that inner voice can be very subtle. Sometimes it might be our own personal preferences and desires strongly moving us. So how is it that you find it easy?
Let’s also separate two things. How do we tell when we are personally moved by the spirit? How do we tell when others are moved by the spirit? When my friend tells me “the Holy Spirit led me do this, or say this” should I just accept it or should I be a little skeptical?
I’ve already conceded earlier that Christianity does contain values and principles that are not unique and yes, it is semantically correct to call these Christian values and principles. My more nuanced point is explained as well. Please read my recent response to Qadgop and feel free to comment.
Since you seem to think Christianity does not share all it’s values and principles with other religions then perhaps you could list a few that you think are clearly uniquely Christian. I’d be interested in your view on that.
as captured in “whatever you do unto others you do unto me”, this is a fine principle but not unique.
In general I get what you mean but we clearly see that even Christians do not agree on what is or isn’t righteous.
Also not unique. Which Holy Book or books should I read in order to know them. Just the Bible? Which Christian leader should I let interpret the Bible for me and tell me what God’s laws are. Fred Phelps? Jim Wallis? They’re pretty different.
Since Jesus failed to do this I think you might be off on this one. I think the term might be “be slow to anger”
ok chaste being celibate or just selective and sincere?
I think major religions have a real problem with this. It’s hard to totally embrace one religions teachings without somehow thinking “since our doctrine is more pleasing to God, he must like us best”
All very nice and not unique. IMO truly forgiving and learning to love those who irritate you is a huge challenge that takes a lifetime of practice. There’s a couple of guys at work that challenge me almost daily.
I think this might be doctrine rather than a principle but YMMV
Nice and nice
IMO this is too simplified. I think the principle is to be careful not to judge others harshly because you will be judged the same way. It seems to me that as humans we must judge and it’s pretty impossible to function without judging. {I guess that would be a subject for a separate thread.}
I didn’t find this in the Sermon on the Mount. Did I miss it?
The big question is who get’s to tell us what God’s plan for our lives is?
these are repeats.
I appreciate you taking the time to list these. Lot’s of good stuff. Still, I didn’t see one principle that is uniquely Christian, and my point stands. If all these principles can be found in other religions and philosophies then for the sake of unity and productive communication among a diverse mankind, perhaps we should address the principles themselves and leave of a label that only serves to divide people.
Does the added descriptor of “Christian” to words like values and principles help us understand those values any more clearly? Does it move a dialog forward when speaking to non Christians or is it a barrier?
True enough, but by calling them christian values, as opposed to simply values, you’re implying they belong more to one group than to the rest of us, or that somehow they were invented by christians.
Or at least are improved upon or are somehow superior because of the Christian brand label.
I think it also matters who is talking to who. If a preacher is giving a sermon to a group of Christians then a term like Christian values may not be intended that way. When Christians use that term in a public forum to an audience they know includes non Christians then I thinks it’s divisive in the way you describe.
-NIV
Man has no spiritual discernment on his own and has to come from external sources. Those sources are either of God or demonic (using the power that God allowed them to have). Due to the world soul’s simularity to some modern day occult practices, I place it in the demonic realm.
Applying occult beliefs into Christianity is usually very problematic to say the least.
Are you saying why can’t there be a ‘good’ demon today? Part of the reason is there is no indwelling of God in demons, so they have no way to know the will of God, so can’t do good. The other reason is that they are doing the work of Satan as he plans for humanity.
Ok let me rephrase it, the supernatural leading are very easy to tell - those things just don’t come from humans, or for that matter demons. But other things may be the Holy Spirit or just may be the flesh.
It depends on where you and they are spiritually
Of course, that assumes that God is good, and that Satan is evil. And since, according to you, “Man has no spiritual discernment on his own and has to come from external sources”, by your own standards you can’t tell which is which. And the God you describe seems anything but good.
I’m sorry. This rephrase doesn’t clear things up for me. How exactly are the supernatural leadings easy to tell? What are the other things you speak of that aren’t so easy?
Or, as reality demonstrates, where you think you are, where you think they are, and how good they are at convincing you they are correct.
I wouldn’t mind a cite for us having no spiritual discernment. Logically, then, between us two the sources of our spiritual discernment could be holy or demonic. For you it could be either, since you might be right but you might be wrong. For me, OTOH, since I don’t believe in God, my spiritual discernment must be solely (or at least majorly) coming from demonic influence. Is this correct?
But this particular one isn’t problematic at all. It’s very easy.
World Soul proponent; there is a life force, a substance of animation and truth, which permeates all matter.
Christian; there is a life force, a substance of animation and truth, which permeates all matter, and that force is God.
See, easy. I’m not suggesting that Christians could find it easy to incorporate it, i’m saying i’ve heard many Christians express that specific idea; that it is already incorporated. Do you not believe God is in all things? That he is the guiding animating force behind all? Is he not that force without which all would be much lesser than it is now? Then you’re a world soul Christian. As I imagine most are.
This doesn’t follow. Even if an indwelling of God was required to know his will, it doesn’t mean they couldn’t do his will by accident. But I have another question; I seem to recall that the gift of the Holy Spirit (the indwelling of God in Man, as I understand it) is given only to those who believe. Is this correct?
I wouldn’t mind a cite for that being all of them. I would suggest on top of that that Satan’s plan might actually involve some good things happening; indeed, having some, few demons do good would provide him with a level of reasonable doubt that all of them being obviously bad wouldn’t provide. Allow him to tempt more easily, that way.
Things like prophecy are so divine that you know it is the Spirit of God.
As we learn to walk with God, God will talk to us in our own way, we have to recognize that leading. It is very hard at first to even see it at all. Then as we walk more with Him we align ourselfs with Him, so it becomes easy to follow ourselves after a while because of the strength of the flesh - thinking it is of God due to conditioning.
You can’t prove a negative, but science has found 5+ senses non have been found to have anything to do with sensing the spirit realm.
I wouldn’t rule out influence of God’s Spirit in your life. God may be leading you to Him, or guiding you to others for His purpose. If the spirit was leading you into destructive activities I’d say that it would be demonic.
I have seen problems with others linking occult to Christianity, I personally think it’s a dangerious idea and I don’t want to go there.
In a weird way they are doing God’s will by accident. God judges the actions by the heart however.
This is my understanding
Demons appearing to act good to mislead people is deception and is bad. There is only one path of ‘goodness’ and that is of the Love of God, anything else falls short (sins).
(after looking again this is not the cite you asked for - but I’m leaving it)The outline of the support is in post 151, again it is too complex and way too time consuming to cite the scriptural support. In post 168 I gave the scripture cite of part of that. A quick way for the rest is to look at the fall. God didn’t just leave us alone, He left us with Satan, who seemed to be entrusted and empowered by God to guide our destiny.
Hmmmmm The Bible does warn about false prophets and wolves in lambs clothing. It doesn’t say don’t worry about it, it’s easy. Looking at the state of organized religion including several who believe they have their own prophet I’d say there’s no evidence it’s easy to tell.
Well yeah, I think I said that already. If we stick just to Christians it’s plain to see that not everyone who thinks they are following the Holy Spirit can be correct. Too many conflicts.
The point I keep stressing is that it seems clear to me in the NT that although it may not be the works themselves that save us it is only the works that reflect the true spirit within the person and ,there are several passages that indicate we will be judged by and rewarded according to, our works. Not by which label is on our religion, and by the passage above, not even by the name of the person we worship and do works in.
I was talking about the Holy Spirit prophetizing though you, not through others.
While there is deception of the enemy withing Christianity, the Holy Spirit will also cause apparent contradictions. Things we can’t understand can coexist, but they do as anything is possible with God. One such apparent contradiction is free will /predetermination, another one is that God must call you, but seek and you shall find.
I agree with what you state.
Using and working in the Name of Jesus is using the power of God, I guess it depends on what you use that power for that would matter.
I see. I’m not so sure that’s easy either. I’ve had some pretty powerful experiences but that I could call spiritual , but I wouldn’t say the Holy Spirit visited me and I had a vision. That’s just me.
Have you prophesied in the spirit?
I agree with these. There are things that may appear to contradict that may just be a lack of complete understanding. In those cases I think it’s good for people to admit they don’t really know and are going with their own judgment rather than say “I’m following God’s will” I think that acknowledgment is quite important. There are other examples of conflicts that are not quite so innocuous and harmless. Women being ordained caused a split in the church I used to belong to. Christian attitudes about homosexuals and abortion seem to be their own personal attitudes rather than the leading of the spirit yet they will present it as if they know the mind of God.
Not according to the verse I just quoted.
Are you saying people can use the power of God to work iniquity?
Yes, human strength is power from God, I can use that strength to murder someone. The Spirit of God allows the casting out of demons, if used but that person is not helped and given the gift of the Holy Spirit that demon will come back with 7 worse spirits.
I’d agree with these. Even if the person were prevented from ever engaging in a immoral sex act, or the murder by abortion they will not be saved by that. The person must be lead to God’s Love, and then God can work on that person in His way. The hatred of the people who do these acts are not of God.
Too personal to go beyond a simple yes on a public board.
Christian principles are, as I said, the ones taught by Jesus. I am, of course, well aware of Christians who don’t practice all of those principles. In a religion whose adherents numbers in the billions, that would be impossible to avoid. The principles are Christian as long as they are the prevailing ones among the Christian community worldwide. All followers of Jesus make up the body of Christ, which is one body.
As for why it’s important to maintian this collection of principles and values as “Christian principles and values”, it’s because this collection produces different results that other religions or the absense of religion. Christian societies develop differently than other societies. I believe that this is because the individuals in Christian societies behave have different goals and standards than those in other societies. Merely claiming a certain virtue in common doesn’t mean that everyone practices it the same way. For instance, one can claim to promote “modesty” by forcing all women to wear burqas, or by forbidding women to even leave their homes. Or one can practice modesty as an attitude that society expects of all individuals at all times, to be displayed through individual choices behavior. Christian society views it that way. (And Christian civilization has always allowed a greater role in society for women than other civilizations typically have.) Hence merely saying that we all agree on modesty is an oversimplification. (And of course there are people today who no longer view modesty as desirable at all, but that’s another debate.)