This belief seems founded in Christian tradition. Not that that automatically makes it incorrect. I’d just point out that a traditional belief , even one held by many others, is often embraced simply because of tradition and not because of personal exploration.
The fall IMO is a metaphor for something we can’t really grasp. The illusion that we are somehow separate from God and each other. A study of the OT will point out that the spirit of God was with man long before the day of Pentecost as the two passages I pointed out previously show. The term “receive the Holy Spirit” is a bit of a misnomer. It’s more accurate to say we awaken, or become more aware of the spirit that has always resided within.
Once I began to question traditional Christian beliefs more seriously I began to study other religions with the idea that other cultures and other sincere people had also sought God and seeking, they would find. I began to sift the common threads and themes from the tradition and mythology. It’s a complicated puzzle that I’m still working on.
The other God’s amount to what we hold as a priority in out lives or what it is we value the most at any given moment. It may be money and influence one moment and sexual conquest the next. It may be what others think of us, and being accepted by the group we’re in, at another moment. When the inner journey and seeking the Holy Spirit and living in love and truth becomes our consistent priority we begin to be transformed from within. All IMHO of course.
Yet Jesus said “Whatever you do unto the least of these you do unto me” so service to our fellow man becomes service to God yes? Wouldn’t it also follow that being one with our fellow men is being one with God. IMO the theology that places God as some separate being out there somewhere creates a false impression in our mind. Read the chapter on one body again. The body is one being , head arms legs etc. One being made up of the same stuff. The goal is to allow the body to function as one without competing over who’s right and who’s more important and who does the head like best.
Christians often see the body as Christianity and the body of Christ but I think this fails when we see how much some Christians disagree with other Christians and how very un Christ like they behave. I think the metaphor of the body extends to all mankind and to bring the whole body into alignment and see that we are all part of the same body and when we contend with each other we contend with a part of ourselves and when we nurture each other we nurture ourselves.
Men acting as if the flesh is our primary reality deny the truth that we are spiritual beings first and only temporarily inhabiting this physical form. When we realize and embrace the truth of who and what we are we come into alignment with that oneness. The hand may not be the head but certainly saying they are the same being is not outrageous. Get down to the essence of DNA. The head and the hand are the same as every other cell in the body. If one cell says,… “no I’m not the same” it is mistaken and needs to return to the truth. If the hand says, “we’re correct and the head loves us the most. We have been chosen by the head to teach the rest of the body how right we are and how wrong they are” that’s also incorrect and far from the truth.
So, what we are left with apart from the labels and differences of doctrine and dogma, is our actions reflect our true inner spirit and we should honor the fruits of the spirit where ever we find them.
This doesn’t answer how you can be sure it is God. You believe that, but belief is not proof. The terrorists believe they are acting for God. It seems to me you have put the power of evil on the same level as the power for good. Using the Bible only works if you are preaching to the choir.
There is a difference between failing to follow the Holy Spirit, and failing to follow your conscience. As I pointed out above I don’t believe everyone has the Holy Spirit indewlling them, they are operating in their flesh with their God given warning system (conscience) or they may have received another spirit (demon), which will exert varying degrees of control and influence.
This is a interpretation I am not going to refute.
He is being deceived by a lying spirit (demon) IMHO, he is following that demon as his ‘god’, his ‘god’ is in open opposition to God, so yes he is in open opposition to God.
It would be hard to determine exactly what choices are conscience and what choices are spirit wouldn’t it? There are verses in the Bible that speak of whether or not we know something is wrong. I think what we call conscience is often that inner voice of the spirit trying to reach us but it is often ignored because of our stubbornness and our willingness to justify actions because of hoped for outcomes, not to mention that some people just don’t know any better…yet.
Take prejudice for example. In the old south it was hard for some people to overcome the influence of their culture and stand up for equal rights but some managed to do so. Was that conscience or the HS?
No time now but perhaps I’ll do some research when time permits. I seem to recall some verses that clearly suggested the indwelling spirit before any sort of conversion. It is the spirit itself that calls us to abandon old ways and seek the truth even before any acknowledged conversion. Once we have acknowledged that that spirit and seek it more actively the details of our journey change.
I think we’ve exhausted this for now but thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Could Socrates’ demon have actually been good, then? You haven’t managed to convince me that demons are (scriptually) anything other than clearly evil when they are doing evil, so it would seem reasonable that Scorates’ demon could have been honestly helping. And on top of that, that any demon now who does not give the appearance of evil possibly is good - though I suspect this will be a more controversial suggestion.
I meant by humans in particular cases, rather than God overall. Exorcism rather than God banning it.
To those still posting in this thread (cosmosdan, kanicbird, Monavis): What are Christian principles and values? Do they actually exist?
I’ve read thru this, and I’m not sure I perceived what your answer to the thread title would be. Apologies if I missed the post where you supplied your answer to this (quite a likely possibility on my part). Do you have succinct replies to the question?
I accept that it may be a interpretation of something in the spiritual world, but I think it is much more literal then generally given credit for.
But not as a perminate indwelling, He is something that can be removed from the person.
And I thank you for sharing your progress.
Thank you for stating IMHO. I understand this viewpoint, IMHO it is far from complete.
cosmosdan I want to say that I do appreciate your posts. I do feel you have part of the picture (and none of us have all), and that part is in a far different area then my part. I have not been lead to extend this to all of humanity.
God has proved it to me to my satisfaction, I think what you are asking for can only be answered by God.
Yes I’ve been accused of that before, I do it to save time, all power comes from God, including fallen angelic power (which I stated is far less then God’s power). God allows use within certain limits, fallen angels, demons and Satan use that power for the most evil then can.
I’d say the Bible only works if you are preaching to the choir or the anti-choir.
You argue that Christian values and principles exist because all of Christianity’s principles are identical to those used by other religions, and that Christianity adds nothing unique to them. I don’t believe that Christianity does share all its values with any other religion or philosophy; I’d certainly be interested to hear of any non-Chirstian source that lists all Christian principles, as opposed to just some of them. But if such a source exists, so what? Do we say that there’s no such thing as McDonalds’ food because every item on their menu also exists independently of McDonalds? Do Levis jeans not exist because Levis added nothing unique to jeans? Things exist if they exist, even if similar things exist elsewhere.
I believe that all the major points are contained within the Sermon on the Mount. The Beatitudes are a list of Christians’ most important values, and Jesus laid out more specific principles during the remainder of the speech.
Major values: piety, self-awareness, humility, mercy, purity of heart, desire for peace, willingness to carry burdens.
Principles: 1. Dedicate yourself to your fellow humans. 2. Live a righteous life at all times, in such a way that others will see your righteousness. 3. Know and obey the laws of God. 4. Eliminate anger. 5. Be chaste, and when married be faithful. 6. Do not claim to be one of God’s favorites. 7. Forgive those who do wrong to you. 8. Love all people. 9. Do good deeds because you desire to do them, not because you want praise from other people. 10. Pray regularly according to Jesus’ instructions. 11. Don’t hoard money, but rather be charitable. 12. Do not obsess over earthly things such as food and clothing. 13. Do not judge others. 14. Do not waste effort. 15. Follow God’s plan for your life, rather than your own plan. 16. Treat others well. 17. Obey all of God’s teachings.
I don’t claim this to be a comprehensive list, but I think it covers the more important principles.
I would disagree with this, it is usually easy to determine the leading of the Holy Spirit, but agree that sometimes it is hard to determine the difference when lead by one’s conscience.
RT the scriptural support that demons guide human destiny, is based on scripture along the lines that man chose his path, but God provides his steps, and that God delegates, and empowers those who He delegates to. The theory is the demons are the ones that guide our steps. As not all angels have fallen, it is possible that not all demons are falled (demons being different then angels). As for Socrates daemon not beign evil, from Socrates came Arstotal <sp> from Arstotal came Plato, and the theory of the world soul, a basic of many occult practices that lead many away from God.
As I stated above God empowers us, He does not need to, but wants to.
In spiritual terms it is to be like Jesus. In worldly terms it could mean almost anything
The problem with this, as I pointed out earlier, is that only some Christians hold those values. Other Christians hold different values. In some cases, very different. What someone like Phelps or Randall Terry or Pat Robertson calls Christian values may not fit what you call Christian values, but it is what they call Christian values.
Not only does Christianity not “share all its values with any other religion or philosophy”, it doesn’t even share them with itself. As I said, “Christian values” is pretty much an information free term; it only tells me something if I already know what you mean by it.
The bottom line on all spiritual values are unconditional love. Practice it, live it, for yourself and all others to the best of your ability. You will always be happy, at peace with yourself and the world, and enjoying life whatever it brings.
If you can live this kind of life it will connect you with your inner spiritual being. You will know you are eternal and that your birthright is God’s unconditional love.
Also considerable philosophy, maths, early physical and biological sciences. The name you’re looking for there is Aristotle. And IIRC, the whole world soul concept wasn’t actually a result of Ancient Greek philosophy, but I could be wrong on that one (and i’m pretty sure Plato did talk about it). I would say that the world soul idea could easily be included in Christian belief; I have certainly heard the notion that God is suffused in all things from Christians before. The soul of all matter seems to me to be a pretty good description of God, really. But ok, let’s say it is bad; how is it you know that the demon may be blamed for the world soul ideas and all the bad that comes from it, and not for the good? How do you know Plato wouldn’t have come up with that if that demon had been made up by Socrates?
I would argue that he would need to; that’s what nigh-infinite compassion does for a being. You wouldn’t really get a choice in the matter. But I think we’ve got a bit off tangent, here; my point here was really just saying that demons shouldn’t be automatically removed and reviled back in those days because it’s quite possible they were up to some good.
Really? You seem very, let’s say, terse in some debates on these boards. I am glad to know that when faced with news of horrifying genocide, you will be a beaming ray of sunshine.
Oh, please. Plenty of people have the “spiritual values” of “kill the unbeliever”, “wealth is a sign of God’s favor”, or “hatred is good”.
:rolleyes: I don’t want unconditional love, since I regard it as both insane and worthless. Unconditional anything is no reflection on me, which robs it of any satisfaction or meaning; and unconditional anything is by definition detached from reality, so it’s crazy. And someone who is always “happy, at peace with yourself and the world, and enjoying life whatever it brings” is a sociopath. It takes a truly warped personality to be happy no matter what.
Nor do I consider love to be anything but another emotion, neither good nor bad. “Unconditional love” is your obsession, not mine. Nor is it the desire of any number of other people.
The ‘World Soul’ is a basis for many occult religions, religions that lead people away from God - this is by default is evil. God can change any evil into good for those who love Him, and can frustrate the efforts of the enemy, but that does not change the evil intent in the heart of that demon.
No, I mean, how can you tell that the world soul was an idea that came from the demon, or from the philosopher? How can you tell that, if that demon had never interacted with Socrates, Plato would later never have even thought about the world soul? Whatever means it is you’re using to know this, does it also allow you to know whether or not the good things resulting from those three are also not the result of the demon?
I still don’t think the world soul is incompatible with Christianity. Your saying it is bad is sort of like saying the Bible is bad for popularizing the concept of a single Messiah, which many people have taken to lead them towards false Messiahs. Certainly it can be used to lead away from God, but then so can pretty much anything, and the world soul is something i’ve often heard from Christians, where the world soul is God.
The “Christian Values” are the same as almost everyone’s values. I know Atheists who act with as much of the same values and they do not claim them as their own. To say something is a Christian value is misleading. It should be most people’s values.
There is no way of “Knowing” if something is of God or your own inner thoughts Most people I know that have changed their belief system was their studying the Bible and began to realize there is too much untruth in it, it is too contradictory,plus we know that humans wrote it, decided to call it the word of God, and inspired by a Holy Spirit. Unless humans are also God. There is too many translations of the Bible and even those of the same faith interpret it differently.
I believe you find peace in believing as you do, so I see no harm in that, but those who think differently are just as entitled as you, so the Holy Spirit acts according to any one’s beliefs.
I never said I was perfect at practicing unconditional love, I am not. As for the world, yes, I am horrified at some things people do to each other, but I realize the material world is an illusion, and people are eternal. There will be another chance to improve and do things better.
