And, as has been suggested in the past, there are people who think that “being Christian” means doing what Jesus called the Christ commanded, in propria persona and not as putative inspirer of the writings of others who tend to argue with each other over doctrine, and who are inclined to put their faith, i.e., their trust, in a God who claims to be a loving Father, rather than in a quasi-omnipotent Satan conceived of as quite powerful and in rebellion against God – and one need only look at the writings of the evangelicals to see that they are less inspired by love of God than they are by fear of Satan – or of what they believe to be God’s wrath, He being the sort of dysfunctional parent who punishes all children for the misbehavior of some.
It would be interesting to study Socrates having a daemon to see the relationship to other demonic possessions. BTW the term demonic possession is not scriptural and is more correctly translated ‘have a demon’ or ‘demonized’, and Socrates claimed to ‘have a daemon’
It is true that there are differences between the demons, but realize that having a demon is not always unpleasant, the loss of that demon may create disappointment as the power it gave goes with it. Even though the demon took control, it doesn’t mean that she was against it. One reason she may have stopped shouting is that the knowledge left with the demon, she had no longer any reason to believe it, I would also WAG that the loss of the demon was disorientating,. Actually what Paul did may have set her up for far worse possession at a later time as trys to come back.
I do agree that the circumstances between the two people (slave vs free) are vastly different.
The demon offered her a escape from her circumstances, much like how someone might turn to drugs. It took her out of ‘common’ slavery to a valuable asset of sorts, Probabally gaining her special treatment. We would recognize that addiction to illegal drugs as a escape is a bad thing in general, so it that respect it was worse.
This is a issue I have not been able to resolve.
My take on when this happens the person is not talking to you, or they are acting in the flesh, or God wants it to bother you. If they are acting in the spirit there is a reason.
Prophecy is God speaking through us, it is a gift of the Holy Spirit. The gifts of the Holy Spirit is in:
1 Corinthians 12:4-14 1 Corinthians 12:27-30 Romans 12:6-8 Ephesians 4:11
Prophecy/prophet is one of the gifts that is listed in all 4
Evangelists is listed as a gift in Ephesians.
The scriptures don’t say it is traditional protestants who judge
Going solely by what I have read myself (which is modern translations, I know no Greek or anything like that) I would say the best phrase would be “to have demon inside”. Regardless of the best translation of the titling of the relationship, it does seem to me that generally in the Bible to be afflicted with a demon means one of two things; limited “magical” ability (such as the Acts girl) and possession (such as Legion, off the top of my head).
The problem with this argument is that you needed the example of the girl to back it up. Do you have any other scriptural support for demons not being overtly evil or unpleasant?
Certainly I’d agree there are other options with the specific case of the Acts girl, I just don’t think it’s a clear enough example that you can say from it that scripturally speaking demons may appear to not be evil.
Drugs are a good analogy, I hadn’t thought of it in that way. Still, this is another potential way in which the demon was overtly evil; if you’ve got other support for this idea, i’d be very happy to see it.
I respect this kind of honest admission more than some convoluted twisting of biblical passages that others might resort to. I sure don’t have all the answers but after thinking about this and studying a bunch it occurs to me that all sincere love and charity comes from the same source. The chapter 12 in 1 Cor. speaks of this.
That chapter goes on to talk about the body being one and even if the eye says it’s not part of the body it still is. I see mankind as the body. We are already God’s children and brothers and sisters in spirit. The struggle is to wake up and realize that and live it.
It seemed obvious to me years ago that God, even given our very limited understanding of what that term may represent, must love all people equally. Reading
It seemed to me that God , who sees our inner heart and thoughts, would not be hung up on labels, and terminology and if any person anywhere in any culture sought him {seek and you will find} then they would receive something even though it must be filtered through their own culture and limited understanding. Believing this and being aware of my own limited understanding I try to honor the spirit within the person and their actions. All sincere love and charity come from the same source, so we shouldn’t allow barriers of words and terminology, doctrine and dogma, keep us apart.
I didn’t think we were talking about prophecy, as in predicting the future. You commented on my “I know I have the truth” comment with something about the HS moving us and it is actually God speaking not us.
I was talking about various people all under the Christian umbrella who seem so very certain that their version of Christ’s message is the correct one and others are wrong. Many of these people can’t agree with each other. IMHO humility and personal honesty {worshiping God in spirit and truth} might suggest realizing that none of us fully comprehend, and it is not necessary or productive to cling to tightly to doctrine and dogma born of man’s traditions.
No they don’t. Personally I am offended when Christians observe the loving acts of others who are not Christians and comment,
“Well it really can’t be God’s love because they haven’t accepted Jesus in the way the Bible instructs”
“In the way the Bible instructs” really means in the way their doctrine and their interpretation instructs. Doctrines and interpretations taught to them by other people. IMO they have missed something essential within the teachings of Jesus and placed the traditions and teaching of men in higher regard than the spirit of love they are witnessing.
And
It is a interesting subject, one that I really haven’t looked into, but now read scriptures with this in mind. It really has not been something that God has placed before me. In general I’ve been steered away from those people.
IMHO many miss the Spirit also.
In a basic form prophacy is speaking for God, but yes it is commonly understood to be future predictions. The gift of evangelism (from angel or messenger) is more appropriate for your point.
Yes even when scripture speaks of we all do a part, not the total. This is the plan and deception of the enemy, all the way to Genesis we see the split of man and God (the fall), man and woman (man shall rule over woman), man and angel (flood), and man and man(tower of babel).
Or take away a natural ability, such as the mute spirit (which BTW the demon itself can hear). Anyway I think we can agree that the daemon that Socrates had could easilly fit into the magical ability category.
Not that I can think of off hand, but in a overall theory about demons that is not contradicted by scripture and many aspects can be supported demons can appear good or evil or neutral as the guide human destiny, though I would thing the slave girl did not see the demon as evil.
It’s a extension of the crulity of inhumanity, to actually have a person accept a demon to escape the horror of their reality.
I have always thought that thinking of people as being possessed by demons was a primitive way of explaining mental illness. I don’t find much emphasis placed on how to avoid or deal with evil spirts and demons in mainline churches today.
Der Trihs, the post you wrote that ended with the statement “‘Christian values’ is pretty much an information free term.,” is one of your best posts ever. I think you are right on the money with this one.
Thank you.
That is not scriptural, though many believe it. You can’t heal a demon, nor cast out a illness. They are separate things Jesus did. Some such demons were not mental illnesses, like the mute spirit and the fortune telling spirit. While few churches will deal with openly with the subject with demons, many (most? all?) will still deal with the issue, but within the core church community, not the general parish. One example it that RCC, perhaps the largest church in the world, rarely mentioned demons in mass, but has in place procedures to deal with them, exorcism.
Yep, it could. Out of interest, if I understand correctly, all demons only became condemned at Jesus’ death, though. So we don’t actually know all demons before that were evil, nor that they should be removed simply for interacting with humans. Is that fair to say?
To be fair, “Jesus would have driven a bright blue car” isn’t contradicted by scripture, either… that’s quite a large category. Plus I would imagine that if indeed the Bible were as spiritually important in terms of needed knowledge for the faithful, theories should be supported totally rather than just not contradicted and supported partially. I wonder if this overall theory goes a bit too far.
Not exactly a fantastic situation, no.
On this we agree.
My point would be that if Christians acknowledge and are aware that their knowledge and understanding is incomplete then this attitude should be reflected in their humility in dealing with other people and other religions. We mere humans are all trying to figure things out. The whole, “if you don’t believe as I do then you’re going to hell” is a real turn off. Especially coming from people who can’t even agree with each other.
It’s better IMHO to let your actions speak for you 99% of the time and, when the occasion arises , share your beliefs in discussions with the acknowledgment that we are still learning and our understanding is incomplete. I think that encourages respect among different beliefs rather than unnecessary unproductive contention.
Now, briefly back to the OP 
Since in your first post you said
then could you give me some idea of what *you think * other Christians mean when they use the terms Christian Values and Christian principles.
In general I sort of agree with this to some degree, to the points I don’t agree, it’s not because I disagree, I just don’t know. Is not something that God has pointed me towards, and I am satisfied with that. It appears like many Christians still act in the flesh, not the spirit. they mean good but act in their own strength, and truely don’t want someone to go to Hell. This is not the way God needs His servants to act, the flesh is not able to overcome.
This sounds like acting in the flesh and equally ineffective as the above first case. You are treating the Holy Spirit as a dead concept, instead of the living God. The Spirit of God can’t be placed in a box. Someone following the Holy Spirit may be able to preach as in case one and win people to God, Another person may see this and attempt this in their own strength,
fail and appear offensive. Another person may be able to only convert a few people with 99% actions and waiting for the occasion to arise.
In general I think many people who self identify as Christians would boil it down to ‘be a good person’.
I would say they were not all evil at that point, or at least their actions where not judged yet.
Satan was not removed from interacting, why should the demons?
Ok yes, I didn’t want to go into the interpretation that would support the theory that demons guide human destiny as it takes a view of human destiny and the relationship between man/God/angels (including fallen angels) and demons over many books and I didn’t want to have to support it. It’s a bit better then Jesus would have driven a bright blue car, but not as strong as Jesus walked on water. Such a topic would be more suited to a Bible study then a posting on a message board.
I wonder why the HS guides you to believe one thing and others to believe something different. you seem to be coming across to me that you are the only one who the spirit inspires or those who agree with you. How do you know it is the holy spirit, as the Devil is supposed to act like an angel of light.
Monavis
We who have surrendered to God are in service to Him. God provides the information and spiritual gifts we need to serve Him as needed for His purpose.
Sorry, this is not how I intend it. This board has both believers and non-believers on it, and it is a very hard topic to explain to a non-believer, I tend to overextend to try to explain the unexplainable.
The devil is a fallen angel with (God given and allowed) angelic powers, far greater then man’s power, far smaller then God’s. The Devil’s powers change radically when viewed from the flesh (man) and the Spirit, it is very obvious.
I understand the desire to want to to give one’s life to a higher purpose and a higher calling. That’s a good thing. My reading of the NT tells me that we can invite the HS to lead us into all truth but it’s still a lifetime process. We grow to maturity one step at a time. while we’re doing that I suggest we walk humbly with our brothers and sisters and try to sift the semantics of labels and the traditions of man’s religions from what the spirit is trying to teach us. Let’s look at others as being on that same journey but merely walking a different path.
FTR I believe in a living Holy Spirit that resides in all people. It is part of who we are and have always been. Our link to God and to each other. The spiritual quest is about waking up to that reality and allowing ourselves to discover and live what it means. In the process we clash with our own ego and a lot of preconceived notions that are illusions we have been taught are truth.
You speak of the HS as if it’s a foreign power occupying our body sent from some distant all powerful being who wants us to be servants. Do you realize how much of that is contained in your language? I see it as realizing we are already part of the same body.
I understand an appreciate the use of terms like “the children of God” “The servants of God” but I think it’s important to use those terms within the framework of understanding that we are one. Part of the same body.
Apart from that I do see your point. People have different gifts and preaching might be one person’s gift. How effective is that gift if they fail to show the fruits of the spirit?
IMO we are called to lose our illusions and try to live in love and truth
We do this by learning to commune with that living spirit within. The one that guides us to the fruits of compassion, charity, kindness, patience, forgiveness, honesty among others.
Being human we often fall short. We confuse man made tradition and rules for the truth and sometimes call it God’s will. Aside from all the spiritual lingo there is the simple reality of how we interact with each other day by day moment after moment.
That really doesn’t address what was asked does it?
I think it’s fairly easy to see that mankind is influenced by culture and preconceived notions. That’s all mankind. Believers from every religion and non believers as well. We see clear examples of that in the Bible.
I sometimes compare it to the purest water {the Holy Spirit} being poured through and impure filter. {People} What comes out may seem great depending on what we compare it to but it is still affected by the impurities in the filter.
Knowing this I think we should be very very cautious indeed about throwing out terms like :“God moved me to…” “I was led by the spirit to …” “God inspired me to…” even though those terms are popular in some circles and it may feel nifty to say that.
My recommendation is that we do what we think is truly best while really looking at ourselves and our motives with as much personal honesty as possible. We take full responsibility for our own choices and the consequences. Each outcome can teach us something if we’re paying attention.
Surrender to God involves a lifetime process. It’s much more involved than a sincere prayer inviting God in. That’s merely one step on the journey. As a wise man once told me.
You can save a man from drowning but he still has a life to live after that.
This is my understanding also.
Would you concede there are those who are not on the same journey, people in open opposition to God?
This is a point I disagree with. There is a split between man and God (the fall), man is his own ‘god’ by that act and acting in his own power. Fortunately, much like power company deregulation, we can shop around for another ‘God’. Some people will chose the true God of Love and receive His Spirit, some will chose other ‘gods’ perhaps ending up with other spirits.
Yes I do see it in the way you state I do, but with a slightly different view. We were made to be one with God, it is our basic design and how we long to be. It is God who completes us, and all we have to do is ask. A person with a God is far better off then a person without, and serving God is the highest thing a human can aspire to.
God is one, not man. People acting in the Spirit of God act in a coordinated effort as God, people acting in the flesh do not.
It is ineffective.
To varied degrees we are all in opposition when we fail to follow the spirit right? For example, I wouldn’t say an atheist who loves and serves others is in open opposition to God but rather rejects all versions of God as deity presented so far while embracing and exhibiting the fruits of the spirit. Is someone like Fred Phelps who holds up signs like “God Hates Fags” while using the Lords name in open opposition?
Free will allows people to reject the spirit so I suppose that means some people will live a life filled with heinous acts against their fellow men. Most people though are a mix of good and bad as they try to figure things out.
I’ll comment on the rest later