Yes, I know that the factors that influence admissions are numerous and sometimes unquantifiable. But I do not presently have the CD that calculates odds. Let’s cut to the chase.
LSAT: 166 (not wonderful; might take it again in October)
GPA: 3.79
University: National tier; sometimes called Big 5 public, depending on who is ranking and what year
Will graduate PBK and probably with honors (i.e. honors courses with a year-long thesis paper). Many extracurricular activities. Have studied abroad, once with an Ivy League summer program.
White male.
Here are the odds I’m giving myself:
Yale - not likely; impetration necessary.
HLS - had better keep my fingers crossed on both hands
Columbia - more possible but surely not a shoo-in
So, People Who Have Done This Before, call it as you see it. Am I deluding myself? I certainly do not feel that I must go to any of these schools, but I am considering them. Thanks for your opinions, but let me down gently.
I’ll give you my experience. Of course, YMMV. I scored in the 98th percentile on the LSAT, and my undergraduate GPA was 3.9. I also had two years of work experience. That equated to being wait-listed at Harvard and Yale. Why? The only quantifiable reason I could find was that I’m a white male that is not a legacy (parent or relative that went to the school) and wasn’t from “money”. It seems to me that someone like our current President has a much better chance to get into Yale than your average shmoe. From what I’ve read, GWB was an average student at best, so based on raw scores he would probably not get in. However, he has good blood lines. In doing some research, I learned that my acceptance (based solely on GPA and LSAT score) was a virtual lock if I was anything but a white male. However, white males with my credentials were offered admission at around 45%. It’s been a long time, so I don’t have any cites for you. However, if my memory serves, I got the information from a public source (probably a law school reference book). That doesn’t mean that I wasn’t excluded for some other reason(s)… The scores are just a measuring stick.
Some years ago, there was a lawsuit filed against the University of Michigan Law School for this very reason. In the name of diversity, universities can and will exclude more “qualified” applicants (at least on paper) with the thought that a diverse population is better for the university and for the students. Although this may be true, it certainly doesn’t make you feel good if you are the one on the outside looking in. On the flip side, it doesn’t mean that students without glowing credentials will fail out of school, either.
With that said, I was accepted into a number of very good law schools outside the Ivy League. So by all means, apply. You never know. FWIW, I also knew a white male from a very modest upbringing (and no legacy) that was accepted into Princeton. So it can and does happen.
Max, no one is guaranteed a spot in a law school based on numbers alone. There are enough people with those grades and LSAT scores that top schools can be selective. I’m sure that there were white men with lower scores that did get accepted. (By the way, a decision came down a few months in the Michigan case that you should read if you’re interested in this topic.)
Top schools look for diversity in the student body in areas other than race. Ivy League schools do not want only Ivy League students. Being from a public school in another region could your chances. That said, you would need more than some extracurricular activities to make up for your below average (from their POV) numbers. The overachievers you are competing against have done some impressive things besides get good grades. Go ahead and apply, but expect to end up at a first-tier but not top-five school. Sorry I can’t tell you what you want to hear.
My advice is to take some time off before you go to law school. First of all, whatever you do in the meantime will make you a more appealing candidate. More importantly, a little more maturity will help you survive law school with your sanity intact. Are you really sure that you want to be a lawyer for the rest of your life? Once you’ve gone deeply into debt and wasted your best years in school, it’s hard to do anything else.
Chickenhead, I was recently in your situation. About a year ago, and I am now headed to Georgetown. I got your exact LSAT score, 3.78 GPA, PBK, senior honors thesis, yadda yadda…my first choice was NYU, though I did apply to Columbia and HLS. Rejected from all three. And I’m not even a white male (I’m the “other” category, and female). Unless you’ve done something amazing, extra-curriculars will not help you. What will in order (I have talked to many an admissions officer) is LSAT, GPA, letters of rec, essay. So make sure the two latter are stellar and you might have a chance. I think my letters of rec were very good. I thought my essay was very good as well, and was told so by friends, colleagues, and professors. It was, however, controversial, which probably did not help.
The other major thing that can help you, is getting your application in early–like, before Thanksgiving. I think people often overlook this point.
And if you don’t get into an Ivy, you can still be happy somewhere else in Tier One–maybe even happier.
I understand that life has no guarantees. I also understand that there happen to be different admission criteria for different demographic groups. Whether or not the decision to admit me, wait-list me, or reject me had anything to do with my status as a white male, I don’t know. However I DO know that if I was anything BUT a white male, I would have been offered a place in the class. I didn’t take it personally. Clearly, since admission rates for white males was less than 50% with the same scores as I had, I wasn’t the only one that was disappointed.
Oh well. It didn’t ruin my life. The truth is I had no idea how I would pay for it… so it probably worked out for the best.
I would be interested in seeing the article of the University of Michigan case. Can you post a link?
Well speaking as a Bulldog class 98’ I’d say work for a couple years, build fledgeling experience, then apply and go for the gold. I was told to work to gain experience then go to grad school. So I worked for 3 years and ended up a Yaley! Best thing I ever did. Most youth today want instantaneous results, high salaries and respect the first time they step onto the work floor. I’ll tell you from my own chronicles…GET THE EXPERIENCE FIRST.
Also you had better like New Haven if you deside to pursue becoming a Bulldog…Boston Common is definitely nicer than NH.
The Michigan opinion can be found here. For me the most interesting part is the way the dissenting judge tries to undermine the integrity of the court.
I still don’t think you can claim to know what the admissions committee would have done had you been of another race. Does gender factor in the decisions at some schools? At my school it doesn’t - there are plenty of qualified women these days.
