Wait a minute. Now, there are also virgins in the Christians’ paradise?
How many of them? 
Sure, as soon as Diogenes proves that it was made up.
I am not afraid of being left behind;not any more.
Fighting ignorance is almost impossible here, people.
The rapture was not meant to be understood (and could not be) until the Tiem of the End, which is around now, which is why people didn’t write about it looong ago.
Where is the Rapture in the Bible, vanilla?
Al;o, what is the basis for your assertion that it wasn’t meant to be understood until the endtimes and how do you know this is the endtimes?
Jesus said no one would know when the end was coming. Was Jesus a liar?
He already has in this thread. In last week’s Jack Chick thread, Friar Ted told you when rapture theology, and it was nowhere near 2,000 years ago. Please understand that to most of us here, rapture theology is ignorance at its worst and to me, personally, it’s Christianity at its worst. It’s a combination of “Nyah-ny-nyah-ny-nyah-na! I’m going to heaven and you-ou’re no-ot!” and "Be good or God is going to getcha! It has extremely little Biblical basis and directly contradicts the literal words of Jesus Christ as well as what I consider the greater meaning of His message. I don’t recall Christ using fear anywhere in the Gospels, although He did lose His temper a few times. When asked what was most important, He did not say judgement was, and He railed against people placing too much emphasis on the letter of the law while overlooking its essence.
How can you say the End Times are around now when Christ Himself said He didn’t know? Are you smarter than Hal Lindsay, who said the End Times were coming in the 1970’s? How about the folks who expected the world to end in A.D. 2000? How about the ones who expected it to end in A.D. 1000? How about Christ, Himself?
You say you don’t need rapture theology anymore. While I’m happy enough it lead to you finding Jesus and, I assume, peace and hope, now, my sister in Christ, I have a challenge for you. Do you trust Christ enough to know he’ll give you the strength to let it go? You’re a good witness for Christ here, for the most part. This adherence to a cruel, unBiblical notion, however, does not become the kind, loving, Christian woman we’ve gotten to know. I’ll admit to a small forest of logs in my own eyes, but, to change metaphors, this sticking to rapture theology is an unfortunate stain on an otherwise beautiful garment of faith. Do you trust God enough to let go of it? I see rapture theology as something tying you to the world of men and men’s cruelty. Are you willing to let go of that chain and soar? I assure you, there is beauty, peace, and wonder here, if you’re willing to join us.
Yours very much in Christ, even if I am also at my employer’s computer,
CJ
Jewish virgins? Hey, if they can’t scrape up some Japanese schoolgirls in Heaven, count me out.
Btw, Siege, that was beautiful.
You just keep reminding me why you’re my favorite Pittsburgh 'Piskie.
Thanks for such a nice post, Siege.
My stance on Christianity has bounced back and forth severely over the last few years; from hate, to resentment, to love the religious nut, hate the religion (:p), and just over the last 6 months or so, to working towards true acceptance and understanding. There’s a lot of pain and hurt in my past and in my family that I feel is directly related to Christianity, but I’m really, really trying to make peace with it, and people like you go a long way in helping.
Thanks again.
Simple answer: There are no signs, it’s all rubbish.
Complex answer: Ditto…
What chain? The chain that bonds me to me Lord and Savior, knowing He will come for me one day? No.
There is beauty, peace and wonder in the churches I have belonged to which believe the rapture idea; no need to join “us”, I’m with christians, I dunno what you mean then by us.
Jesus’ words on the matter of the final judgement:
- It’ll be sudden and unexpected (insert Spanish Inquisition joke here)
- It’ll separate the true believers from the chaff (exactly when this happens depends on who you ask)
- You’re not as saved (or as lost) as you might think, so clear your accounts with God before He comes around to audit you.
There’s a tantalizing statement Jesus makes that goes thus…
(Matthew 24: 38 - 41)
Although given this context, it sounds like the survivors are the ones that are left. Hmm…
Personally, I don’t believe in the Rapture, and I think the Millenial Reign has already begun with Jesus’ resurrection. God’s never been too great about exempting His people from suffering, and also seems to prefer the subtler, change-of-heart approach than raining fire and brimstone. (But of course people remember the fire and brimstone. :D)
All Christian doctrine says that Jesus will come for you. vanilla. The question is whether there will be a preliminary ascension of souls, followed by a tribulation, followed by another parousia or “second coming” event.
The Bible teaches that Jesus will come back and take you to Heaven. It does not say that a bunch of people will be “left behind” to suffer for the amusement of the raptured. The Bible says Jesus will come once and that’s it. Metaphorically speaking,m the “Tribulation” is now. It is all the time before Jesus returns. The message is simply to remain faithful and to follow the commands of Jesus (i.e. Love God and love your neighbor). Have faith that there will be a day of judgement and redemption.
The primary message of Revelation is that no matter how bad things look, hold on, it will be alright in the end. It’s not intended to be a guidebook for the endtimes. It uses coded symbols to address specific issues contemporary to the date of authorship, but allegorically speaking, it’s just talking about hard times and wavering faith.
Exactly. The ones being “taken” are the ones being killed.
I’ve been gone a couple of days so now I gotta play catch up!
On vanilla’s side, while I’m no longer a PreTrib Rapturist, I was for the first few years of my active C’tian life & I don’t think it’s necessarily a wrong view. I just don’t think it’s self-evident from the Scriptures- especially as the historic Church somehow managed to totally overlook it for 1700 years at least.
To clarify a misused term I noticed- “Premillenialism” is NOT the teaching of the PreTrib Rapture. It is the teaching that Jesus will return to reign over the Millenial Kingdom. A PreMil view is not tied to any set view of the Rapture, tho Popular US Evangelicalism usually is PreTrib. However, few US Evangelical churches make a necessary doctrine of PreTribism, tho many do of PreMillism.
Now to vanilla- regarding first century AD identifications for the Two Witnesses-
Peter & Paul being martyred in Rome under the reign of Nero, with their “Resurrection” being in the survival and eventual triumph of the Faith over Rome & the Caesars.
The Two representing the range of Apostolic martyrs killed in Jerusalem, from James bar-Zebedee under Herod in ACTS to James Brother of Jesus under Ananus around 62 AD- and the Resurrection being the Christian faith outlasting both the Herodian & the Priestly authorities.
Full Preterists would even say that a literal Resurrection did occur at 70 AD though it was not visible- tho the aftermath of the Jerusalem destruction &
the death of the Julio-Claudian Caesar family was.
JSM@CCT- have you read James BeauSeigneur’s CHRIST CLONE TRILOGY novels? His presentation of the Rapture sounds like it may well correspond with your view.
Apparently, the Catholic church is getting concerned about it-not the Rapture itself, but Rapture theology. I was reading in the Pittsburgh Catholic a while back an article concerning the Left Behind books.
Basically, it explained that the rapture is NOT Biblical, nor a part of Catholic doctrine, and that while the books may be an entertaining read snort!, they are NOT to be taken as truth, or gospel, or anything other than science fiction. Supposedly, some CATHOLICS are now buying into the idea of the rapture, which, according to church teachings, would be heresy.
In fact, I had never even heard of the freaking rapture until I came to this board. I always thought “rapture” was a sexual term.
Catholicism teaches judgment by way of the Sheeps and the Goats allegory-which I much prefer. (Even though I’m no longer a Catholic-or even a Christian, for that matter. Hey-you can take the girl out of the Catholic church, but you can’t take the Catholic church out of the girl!)
Oh, how I envy you. It’s a fairly central focus in the area where I grew up and, frankly, it’s pretty damn creepy hearing about it so often. Kids talk about it at school, every other car has a sticker that says “In case of rapture, car will be unmanned!”, etc.
vanilla - You probably hate me by now but please try not to hold a grudge, or - barring that - at least try to understand where I’m coming from. It’s just that the use of scare tactics to goad people into following your religion is incredibly offensive to me. I’m not saying that you try to convert anyone, but you admit to having been converted by these methods, and now you seem to be afraid to let go of what you’ve been told. A god that reigns by fear is no god that belongs in anyone’s life, in my very humble opinion.
No, the chain which minds you to a theology of hatred, fear and pain, created by men who put their desire for power above their desire to serve God and do His will. Rapture theology drives people from Christ and promotes lies. It binds men to God by fear rather than the love Christ offers. Christ never said “convert or die!” Instead, he took the least respectable and the most outcast, tax collectors, lepers, Samaritans, etc. and welcomed them. He spoke of the least and lowly being welcome at the feast, while rapture theology condemns them to eternal suffering.
I, too, know Christ will come for me someday, and I hope that, in the words of one of my favorite hymns, I will hear from Him, “Servant, well done,” for I am very much his servant in this world. The difference between us, as I’ve said far too often this month, is that in order for Him to do that for me, others don’t have to suffer. In fact, I have a feeling that if I felt that way, instead of hearing “Servant, well done,” I might be in for a good talking to! Let go of your insistence that others suffer unspeakable torture that you may know peace, please.
By the way, I’ll ask again, although I know better than to expect an answer. Why should you be right about the rapture being due now, when the men whose teachings you follow, Lindsay, Darby, etc. were wrong about it? Rapture theology is a theology promoted by men for men’s power, rather than by God for God’s glory.
CJ
Uncharacteristically snotty of you. Obviously you don’t know me very well as you have an answer: The sign of the end was Jews taing control of Jerusalem in 1967 which means the rapture couldnot have happened before that.
Just out of interest, vanilla, what do you think of ephraim? Bear in mind that he too is utterly convinced that the End Times are imminent.
Proven wrong.
Its what got me saved and many others.
People are going to suffer eternally whether the rapture happens or not.
Given that eternal suffering is not explicitly Scriptural, would you feel disappointed if they didn’t? It sounds like you want some good old eternal suffering to happen to, well, me.
If you don’t want it, why interpret Scripture in such a way?