So, essentially people who have been saved by rapture theology are being saved by having their fears exploited? Is that true salvation, or just fear of being “left behind?” I’ve looked at the bible, and various teachings and come to the conclusion that aspects of the bible are exceptionally vague. Some Christians take these teachings literally, some figuratively. The literal Christians think the figurative Christians are wrong and vice versa. There is no right answer, because no one will listen to reason.
I know I started this thread to discuss the rapture and signs of the apocalypse, but so many new thoughts and ideas have risen up as a result.
That was 37 years ago, lady. Looks like our Lord and Saviour is either running a bit late or He was right when He said even He didn’t know when the end would come. John Darby was just as convinced the end was near as you were; so were a whole bunch of folks 1,000 years ago. If Christ doesn’t know when the end is coming, how can you. As for my snarkiness, it wasn’t snarkiness; it was based on the fact that you haven’t answered the question in the past.
Since 1967, I’ve watched my two brothers grow to manhood, and seen wonders I can’t begin to describe. Don’t you want the same for your son? Or, is getting out of your troubles so important to you that nothing else matters? As I mentioned in the BBQ Pit earlier this week, last Friday, I sang and prayed for God to have mercy on people and not condemn them to the lake of fire and eternal suffering; rapture theology appears to pray that God show no mercy and that people be condemned to such things. They deserve it? I’ve got news for you. So do you, and so do I. The Good News, the news I thought we were supposed to be preaching, is that by Christ’s Grace, we are saved, and that we isn’t just limited to those who say a handful of magick words (no, that’s not a typo) or darken the door of a church occaisionally.
Christ preached love, hope, and life eternal. Rapture theology, and I regret even that capital “r”, preaches hatred, destruction, and death, even though some small number are saved. I’ve felt the edges of the Presence of God in my life, and I have been moved to awe, trembling, and even a trace of fear. What I have felt from God is akin to the angels saying, “Be not afraid.” My walk with God is one of awe, wonder, hope, joy, peace, love and life eternal. Rapture theology has room for none of that save for those who arrogantly fancy themselves God’s elect. I’m none of that; just a servant trying to do her job right and undo some of the damage rapture theology has done.
Proven right. Just because rapture theology drove you to Christ doesn’t mean it drives everyone to Christ anymore than Greyhound’s driving people to Cleveland doesn’t mean it drives me to Pittsburgh. I’ve a feeling I know more non-Christians than you do, disrespectable soul that I am. I know what I’ve heard and I know what it does to me.
Isn’t there also the problem of: If you only believe because you’re scared, it kind of defeats the purpose of believing?
Siege: You sound like you might not believe in hell. I’ve personally never seen a concrete scriptual argument for it but it’s so ingrained in pop-culture that you can’t tell anyone that and I lost my bible when I moved out here and haven’t gotten a new one yet, so I can’t really verify it one way or another scriptually. What’s your stance?
No way, I and God would be happy if everyone went to Heaven.
Its too late now for those who have died before today.
“It is appointment once for man to die, then judgment.”
There is no Rapture. It is an invention, pure and simple. There is absolutely no Biblical reference to it. It’s only purpose for exisiting is to let the people who follow it feel superior and more righteous than everyone else. It, and the various recent books written about it were invented to satisfy the bloodlust and hate that some so-called religious people have for everyone else. I like to think “my” God is better than that. Aren’t The Four Horsemen, Hell, Gehenna, Purgatory, The Lake Of Fire and The Outer Darkness enough to keep people in line anyway???
Re: Why people continue to believe the end is near, when all previous predictions have failed.
In chapter 4 of his book Influence, Robert Cialdini explores the history of end-times cults.
He then recounts a field experiment by social scientists who actually joined an end-times cult in Chicago and waited out the final hours with them (Festinger, Riecken, & Schachter, 1964).
When the flood didn’t come, only one member left the group. The rest became more devoted, seeking converts and publicity, which they previously had not. (Their justification, btw, was that their faith had caused the world to be spared.)
Here’s what one of the leaders of the cult said to one of the researchers 4 hours after the failure of the world to end:
Cialdini’s interpretation:
Interestingly, this might help explain the fervor of the early Christian missionary movement. If Cialdini and Festinger et al. are right, these missionaries didn’t seek converts in spite of Jesus’ failure to return as promised, but because of it.
It might also help explain why some adherents of Rapture theology can become more entrenched in their views when presented with clear evidence that the doctrine is both historically failed and not actually Biblical.
When one’s entire world view, even one’s relationship to God, hinges upon Rapture theology, that belief cannot be allowed to fail.
Btw, by “social proof” Cialdini refers to the human phenomenon of believing that something is real or acceptable if it seems that other people do.
Some widely known experiments testing theories of social proof include:
– If you get a few people to stand on the sidewalk looking up at nothing, you’ll get others to do so. The more people you have doing this, the higher the percentage of passers-by who will also do it (and they’ll look longer, too).
– If a “decoy” planted by the experimenter jaywalks, others are likely to follow. The higher the apparent status of the jaywalker (e.g., suit and tie v. jeans and t-shirt), the more likely others are to follow.
– Advertisements that make claims of huge prior sales (e.g. “Over 1 million sold!”) have greater pull than ads which are identical except that they lack the claim.
– A person in apparent distress is nearly 3 times as likely to receive help from a lone observer than if there is a group of observers present, except when an initial helper has been planted in the group, in which case people tend to contribute to giving assistance. In other words, people who would assist by themselves are reluctant to do so if they see other people also doing nothing, which explains the phenomenon of large numbers of people standing around glancing at each other while horrible acts are committed in front of them.
Per Cialdini, the “true believers” confronted with physical proof against their beliefs will compensate by focusing on social proof among the community of believers, including attempts to increase their numbers.
I’ve also read the Bible, some books several times, and studied under Christian and Jewish scholars.
And I’ve read Vedic literature (I wish there were enough time in one life to read it all), Greek and Roman myth, Jewish pseudepigrapha, gnostic scripture, Native American lore, Zen koans, I Ching, Chuang Tzu, Dead Sea scrolls, C.S. Lewis, Chuck Swindoll, Brother Jed Smock, Karl Marx, Satanic screeds, subway graffiti, Joseph Campbell, papal edicts, Martin Luther, St. Augustine, Timothy Leary, the Tao Te Ching (dozens of times), Ram Das, Christian apocrypha, Thich Nhat Hanh, the Dalai Lama, Krishnamurti, Swami Prabhupada, and hundreds of others.
Vanilla, you don’t have to believe in the Rapture and the apocalyptic teachings of the Darbyites to be a Christian. You really don’t. I would even go so far as to say that these teachings are heresies, inasmuch as they draw attention away from your relationship with Jesus to seeking after spurious “signs and wonders.” Your preoccupation with the Rapture and the Apocalypse tends to make you blind to the way you live your life as Jesus intended for you to live that life. We are not supposed to live every minute anticipating divinely ordained catastrophe. What is important is the way you treat yourself and the people around you. Jesus is much more pleased with you when you lend your shoulder to a suffering friend to cry upon than when you spend your time poring over books and newspapers looking for indications that the End Is Near. He is much more pleased with you when you spend your time volunteering at a soup kitchen than when you spend it debating obscure and tiresome interpretations of scripture trying to decide which current event is a sign of the End Times. I am speaking from personal experience here. The devastating effect that this deranged theology has had upon my family and upon my life convinces me that these ideas could not possibly have come from any loving and compassionate God. The gospel of the Darbyites is a gospel of fear and hate, and not at all a gospel of love and faith.
You don’t have to believe these things to be a Christian. You really don’t. Please, please, * please, * read Barbara Rossing’s * The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation. * Please try to understand that you have been the victim of a truly awful hoax, and that hoax may be doing tremendous damage to you and those around you. Please. There is no need, none whatsever, for you to believe these horrible things.
Although I am not a Christian in any conventional or traditional sense of that term, I will pray for you, and I hope that you will pray for me.
To summarize, all of the words which are frequently translated in English to “Hell” have one of three meanings in their original Greek or Hebrew.
These words are:
1.) Sheol, the ancient Jewish concept of an underworld more or less equivalent to Hades. It was the destination for everyone and for those Jews who believed in a Resurrection of the dead it was temporary.
Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnon, southwest of Jerusalem. It was used as a dumping ground for garbage and for animal carcasses. Sometimes the bodies of executed criminals were cast into it as well. Fires burned pretty much constantly in the valley as an attempt to destroy the rotting corpses. Gehenna was also said to have been a site of human sacrifice by the Canaanites and so was a place forsaken by God. It was literally a God forsaken, fiery pit where “the worm never died.” As such, it became a symbol for death, especially ignoble death.
Hades, the Greek underground.
In Judaism then was (and is) no concept of eternal hell but sometimes the image is found of someone being cast into flames for anihilation.
Revelation speaks of a “Lake of Fire,” but also says that this lake is reserved for Satan and his demons.
The popular concept of Hell grew as extra-Biblical Christian tradition, largely helped along by the imagery of Dante and Milton. There is nothing in either the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament which says that bad people will be tortured forever.
Lonesome Polecat: I know that, I don’t have to believe the rapture to be a christian. But I do. Just like one doesn’t have to speak in tongues to be one either.
Don’t worry, I’m fine.
Sample: Yes, I meant it as Ha! I figured if you didn’tbelieve the rapture,it would be different to want to read Lindsay. research then, yes?
“Ha!”