What are the signs of the apocalypse and coming rapture?

Great Debates
101

I wouldn’t call it research, even figuratively. I do a lot of that, but I read Lindsay (starting w/ LGPE) just b/c I wanted to understand what he had to say. At that point in my life, I was not familiar w/ Rapture theology. I ended up disagreeing with him almost entirely, but didn’t go into it with that mindset. (Keep in mind that I was some decades younger then.)

I read as widely as I can, just because I’m curious. Often, I go into something thinking I know what I’ll find, but end up taking away something totally unexpected. Perhaps if that did not happen, I would have given up reading long ago.

102

Diogenes’ summary of the Biblical “Hells” is pretty much on target. I have to add that Jewish concepts of Gehenna have limited it to twelve months, after which souls may be reconciled to God or ultimately destroyed. A few ancient Jewish writings, in the deutero- & non-canonical “scriptures”, have suggested “eternal” damnation, but if the Greek word used is “aionian” (as in the New Testament), then the damnation is “age-enduring”, not necessarily “forever”.

Revelation 20 does relegate all who are not in God’s Book of Life to the Lake of Fire. I think the Lake of Fire is John’s term for Gehenna.

Early apocryphal Jewish & C’tian writings, such as the Books of Enoch, do go into elaborately fanciful descriptions on the tortures of damned souls.

103

True. The word “rapture” isn’t in Scripture. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong to use the word as a descriptive term. Preachers and commentators use words that aren’t in scripture all the time, to “give the sense” (Neh. 8:8) to actual Scripture. As long as the commentary is backed up by actual Scripture, and causes the hearer to see the truth of Scripture, it is a good thing.

What the word “rapture” (violently seized, transported - Webster) is attempting to describe is what Scripture speaks of in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
(KJV)

This is the resurrection of the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27), and the “mystery” of 1 Corinthians 15:

**“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” ** (1 Cor 15:51-54) (KJV)

If none of this is going to happen then there is no point at all to Christianity because:

"But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
(1 Cor 15:13)(KJV)

Everything in Christian doctrine centers around this event commonly referred to as the “rapture.” If this word bothers you, then you can call it the “catching up,” etc., but don’t say the event isn’t in Scripture because it most certainly is; it is, in fact, the “blessed hope” of the body of Christ (Titus 2:13).

If you consider all this to be so much nonsense, this is probably because you aren’t saved, i.e., you’ve never trusted Christ as your saviour.

104

Thank you.

105

Once again, this all describes the parousia, not the Rapture. Your first quoted passages was merely an assurance by Paul that those who had already died would still go to Heaven. A resurrection of the dead is not the “Rapture”. There is no such event desctribed in the Bible. Just to reiterate so there is no more confusion. The Rapture is the non-Biblical doctrine that there will be a preliminary ascension of souls before the so-called tribulation (the word actually comes from the Vulgate translation of your Thessalonians passage). The Rapture is not a belief in a resurrection of the dead or a mass ascension into Heaven. That is the Second Coming, and that’s is something the Bible does describe.

What the Bible doesn’t say is that there will be any ascension of souls before the last day or that all the bad people will be “left behind” for the Tribulation.

If you’re going to debate about this stuff at least make sure you understand the terminology.

106

The vast majority of Christians for the vast majority of Christian history have not believed in Rapture Theology. That’s because it’s not in the Bible. “Accepting Christ” does not alter the text of the New Testament.

107

About Matt. 24:38-41: Your exactly right. The righteous are left behind. There’s a reason for this apparent contradiction: This isn’t the rapture (catching up) of the body of Christ! This is the second coming of Christ to the earth, to set up the kingdom, in which New Testament Israel will rule.

There is absolutely no Scriptural evidence that would document what you say about being in the Millenial Reign, presently (How come the 1000 year reign has been going on for almost 2000 years?). Go back and read any of the prophecies of this period of time (e.g., Isaiah 60,61,62; Jeremiah 31:31-35; Zechariah 14, et. al.), and then tell me they match up with what is going on in the world we live in.

We’re in the grace dispensation (Ephesians 3:2; Col. 1:25), not the kingdom.

108

Ther is no Rapture in the Bible. Matthew wasn’t even talking about any “millenial reign” but simply about being on guard for the wrath of God.

109

Eh, just as I suspected. What blows my mind is why people so desperately want to believe in this negative stuff.

If I bought a car for its great stereo system, and it turned out not to even have a stereo, would I still venomously defend the quality of the stereo to everyone that questioned it? I’d like to think not.

110

Excuse me, but that is the exact event that is described in 2 Thess. 4:16,17:

"…and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…"

Is there anyone out there who can read English? I could give a flip what the corrupted “vulgate” says. I can read what the English says, and it says that those who have believed that Jesus died and rose again (verse 14) are going to be “caught up…to meet the Lord in the air…” In other words, this is a celestial meeting, not a terrestrial one. On the contrary, Job said he would see his redeemer **“stand at the latter day upon the earth…” ** (Job 19:25) This will be in the second coming, which is a different event from what is described in 2 Thess.

To say, “I can see what it says, but I don’t believe it,” would be the honest response, rather than to say, “well, er ah, that’s not really what the plain words say, because, after all, if it really said what it obviously says, this would contradict my preterist presuppositions.”

The problem here is that you are embracing a philosophy on scripture rather than the scripture itself. To believe Russell’s Preterism one practically has to turn the entire scripture into a figure of speech.

111

No it isn’t.

What does this have to do with the Rapture? Are you certain you understand what the Rapture is supposed to be? Because I don’t think you do.

I will explain this passage for a third time. Paul was asked whether those who died before Jesus came back would still go to Heaven. Paul said that the dead would rise first and that the living would then join them. That’s it. It’s not the Rapture. It’s a description of the Second Coming. The Rapture is the belief that only certain people will be taken up and THEN there will be a “Tribulation” and THEN there will be the Second Coming. Are you getting this yet? Thessalonians is only talking about the Second Coming.

The. Rapture. Is. Not. In. The. Bible.
M’kay?

Are you under the impression that Thessalonians was written in English or are you under the impression that the English is uncorrupted? As a matter of fact I can actually read the Greek it was written in but it’s a moot point in this case. There is no issue about the translation. I was just telling you where the term “Rapture” came from.

This is beyond specious. Job said nothing whatever about the Second Coming. The verse you quoted is not even about God. “Redeemer” should be translated as “vindicator.” Job believes that he is about to be murdered and he is expressing a wish that someone will vindicate him to God after his death. It has nothing to do with Jesus nor could it since it was written a half millenium before the Christian era.

Thessalonians is only about the second Coming. There is no such thing as a “Rapture” event in the Bible.

I’m telling you what the plain words say. You’re the one who is investing them with meanings that aren’t there. Your ridiculous conflation of Thessalonians with Job to try to find some distinction that doesn’t exist is exactly the kind of spastic, decontextualized and unlearned exegesis that some of us have been talking about. It’s cut and paste gibberish, not an honest reading of scripture.

We really need an irony smilie around here.

I’m not here to argue Preterism but I will say that it’s slightly more rational than futurism. which shows an almost complete disregard for scriptural and historical context.

112

Nah, the Jewish virgins in question (male virgins, for the record. hehehe) aren’t going to be in heaven just then since they’re off fighting the devil (on earth?) , so their battle doesn’t really preclude there being Japanese school girls in heaven. I’m sure there will be lots of virgins in heaven and not just geeks :smiley:

113

Yes it is, no it isn’t. This is why we separate church and state. Otherwise we’d have religious civil wars.