What Are Your Challenges In Being An Atheist? (Spin-off for other ??)

Great Debates
1

From http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9211744#post9211744
[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
I’ve been calling for this thread to be brought back somewhere to its original intent. I don’t recall the OP stating that any challenges had to be considered valid by other posters in order to have merit.

Questioning whether or not atheists have challenges is for another thread. Comparing those challenges to such things as slavery is for another thread.
Religious discussions having nothing to do with challenges is for another thread.

[/QUOTE]

I have slogged thru portions of this thread because I found the original question interesting. So far I haven’t found the following specific but related topics addressed (if they have, please quote them or point me to the correct place), and am interested as a non-judgmental, open-minded believer in how atheists approach these topics.
[ul]
[li]How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.[/li][li]Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.[/li][li]Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.[/li][/ul]
Finally, let me state I’m not trying to start an argument or be insulting in these questions. I merely want to fight my own ignorance; thx for reading.

2

[QUOTE=CJJ*]

[li]How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.[/li][/quote]

There is no reason it must be god. Why can’t it just be the universe? I find it strange that theists think this is a difficult question. Who created god?

[quote]

[li]Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.[/li][/quote]

I’ve got another 60 years or so, this doesn’t weigh on me much. An afterlife doesn’t make any sense to me though so it’s kind of like wishing you could fly. It’d be cool, but it’s not going to happen so why worry?

[quote]

[li]Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.[/li][/quote]

I ignore all religious aspect and enjoy the time with my family. If religion is specifically brought up I’ll discuss it, but it doesn’t ruin anything.

A comment about the thread in general, nobody said the complaints had to be the equivalent of concentration camps to be mentioned. If an atheist gets shit for being so isn’t a snide comment relevant even if it isn’t on the level of what’s happened to other people? It’s not a contest to see who has had it the worst.

3

[QUOTE=CJJ*]

[list]
[li]How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it. [/li][/quote]

I didn’t reason myself into atheism. I don’t believe because I can’t believe, and gave up trying. If I were a theist, I’d find it intellectually challenging to believe that God had no beginning, he just always existed.

[QUOTE=CJJ*]

[li]Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.[/li][/quote]

I find it a relief to know I won’t live forever. Also, when terrible things happen, I’m comforted to know that it’s not part of Someone’s plan, not just collateral damage or something that was “allowed” to happen.

[QUOTE=CJJ*]

[li]Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.[/li][/quote]
I celebrate all holidays involving fun and/or candy. I like Christmas carols too.

4

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
[li]How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.[/li][/quote]

If you want to say The Universe = God, that’s OK with me. I don’t know what it would mean, though, since The Universe ≠ A Sentient Being (or any kind of Being). So, we atheist deal with it the same way you deal with the origin of God.

[quote]
[li]Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.[/li][/quote]

It sucks. But pretending it isn’t true wouldn’t make sense.

[quote]
[li]Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.[/li][/QUOTE]

See my first post (on page one, or thereabouts). I don’t go to Mass on Christmas, but I give gifts, sit at the holiday table for dinner, etc. I’m happy to attend a Church Service if it’s part of a friend’s wedding. I’ll say “grace” if I’m eating with a family that does so. It’s no big deal.

It’s not like we’re living in the 17th century where you might be burned at the stake for being an atheist. And it’s not like taking part in some religious ceremonies means you’re a believer. It’s just part of the culture, and I’m not being forced to live my life in any particular way.

5

[QUOTE=CJJ*]

[li]Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.[/li]Finally, let me state I’m not trying to start an argument or be insulting in these questions. I merely want to fight my own ignorance; thx for reading.
[/QUOTE]

Taking note of the mod’s request to resist hijacking this thread (then responding to the hijack anyway)…I am studying for exams, and cannot justify the time to participate in this thread, but I felt the need to answer this question:
Speaking only for myself, I find immaturity in the wish that one will exist eternally alongside all your favorite loved ones, puppies, grandparents, goldfish, etc. Is the individual ego so fragile that one must imagine death is the equivalent to winning the lottery? That all wishes and dreams will come true as soon as the heart stops?

We are living creatures, same as trees, dogs, goats, and carrots. Why would only homo sapien look forward to an eternal reward? Are the other species merely props?
Death is scary; because it is unfamiliar, and means separation from the people and things you love in life. Surely only the seriously ill *look forward * to death. But religion seems to reassure the individual that death is not the end, but the beginning of an endless trip to a fun carnival or vacation. A method to reassure the individual that he or she is so very special, and will never, ever, ever really die, but will live on forever and ever. (cue rainbows, unicorns, piñatas and the bestest family reunion you can imagine but with good food) Is Bob Barker the earthly equivalent to God? Are you, the individual really entitled to such riches, prizes, and excess simply because you lived 70 odd years upon this planet?

All living creatures die. Despite the handful of claims of near death experience, (and I had one of those, sans white light and whatnot) we cannot know what lies beyond this realm. Of course we want to imagine that our puppies, our children, our grandparents will be waiting for us with open arms. Everyone’s concept of perfect heaven would include all of the people and all of the things that we loved in life. But I don’t know what happens after death, and you don’t either, despite your reassurances to one another that all your specific wishes and dreams will come true.

As far as religion giving meaning to life: You are responsible for giving meaning to your own life. Be kind. Help. Offer assistance. Offer kind words and reassurance. Do chores for those who cannot. Buy a meal for one who is hungry. Watch the sunset. Travel and acquaint yourself with peoples from all over the world. Sit in a warm, sunlit corner and read your favorite book. Raise self-sufficient children. Put your face in a basket of kittens. Eat your favorite cake. Remember your manners. Hug your friends. Make love.

Simple. Act now- behave as if you don’t know for certain that carnivals, parks, reunions, rainbows, unicorns and that your individual and specific wishes aren’t waiting to greet you when you die. Live. *Live now. *

6

[QUOTE=CJJ*]

[li]Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.[/li]
[/QUOTE]

When I was 20 I thought this type of immortality was very appealing. Now I’m a lot older than 20 I can see the downside. My father-in-law is 92, and is about as active as with it as anyone this side of George Burns - he still composes music, still surfs the web, and is active and involved. But even he has no desire to live forever (he’s an atheist, by the way.) So much of life is growing and learning, and that gets harder to do when you get older. How would an incorporeal being in either paradise or hell grow? What new things would there be in 1,000 or 1,000,000 years? There is a George Harrison song called “The Art of Dying.” I’m not afraid of learning that when the time comes.

7

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
[li]How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.[/li][/QUOTE]
The cosmological argument is a bait-and-switch: you assume that the universe must have been created by something else, and suddenly that something must be the full God/Jesus/ressurection/etcetera, flavored to match the speaker’s religion of choice.

Myself, I just don’t assume that anything else was necessary to have started the universe. And we cannot observe anything about the extra-universal conditions that “preceded” the Big Bang anyway, so speculating about such conditions (if any such conditions even exist) is bound to be fruitless.

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
[li]Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.[/li][/QUOTE]
I don’t worry about oblivion; the idea is actually rather appealing. On the other hand, the threat of eternal torture in hell, or the marginally better threat of being trapped in a heaven under some god for an unending, inevitably terminally boring eternity…aaaaughh!! Keep it away!

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
[li]Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.[/li][/QUOTE]
I consider the religious trappings of holidays moronic and annoying; more because of the other people who demand that you coddle their little fantasies than because of the existence of the fantansies themselves. (For example, I know no practicing jews, and none of them try to shove their religion down my throat, and as a result I have no interest in or problem with their strange personal habits.)
The nonreligious aspects of holidays lack these annoying elements, and so are less annoying and more fully enjoyable. Plus, taking days off work, eating well, and exchanging gifts is fun.
Anyway, to answer the OP, if not for religion I would be happily married, for something like four-to-six years now. However, due to my lady love’s xenophobic religion (mormonism), I am morosely single, entertaining a mostly enjoyable, occationally excrutiating enforcedly “just friends” relationship with her. (Religion and politics (which is the same thing since she’s a values voter) are the only things of substance that we disagree upon.)

My mom also prostelytes to me regularly, and it’s getting more and more difficult not to ream her up one side and down the other with a harsh application of reality, and thereby cause tremendous family tension, to no possible good end since she’s thoroughly brainwashed and wouldn’t change anyway. It’s also annoying to watch her indocrniating my young (4yrold) niece, as I see it as a spreading of a plague of ignorance, which I am morally bound to interfere with, but required by the bounds of parental control to stand aside for.

Religion is a pain in my ass.

8

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe there had to be a ‘god’ to make the universe come into being. I don’t need for that to be true to make the universe a wondrous and mysterious place. Quantum physics alone is magic enough for me. Evolution is breathtaking and full of interest and mystery enough for me. It’s really not a great challenge from my perspective.

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.
[/QUOTE]

In an infinite universe it’s possible that the ‘me’ will live again…Sagan actually makes just such a point in Demon Haunted World. It’s possible that medicine or technology will let me live ‘forever’…or at least for a long time.

Or not. I really don’t dwell on it. To me I’ll live as long as I live…and totally enjoy my time on earth. Perhaps my children are my ‘immortality’. Perhaps death will come not as a thief but as a welcome friend after a long life.

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think they are challenging at all. I have no problem with other people’s faith in god. I don’t need to challenge or torture them because they have faith and I do not. Christmas? I enjoy the season, especially for the kids. I think it’s a great idea to have a time when people exchange gifts. Christian? I don’t really see it that way…at least here in the US it’s only vaguely Christian these days. I’ve seen Muslims and Jews who celebrate Christmas (at least the secularized US version)…and this agnostic will have the whole pagan, Norse/Celtic tree with equally pagan Roman decorations, and will enjoy every minute of it…especially the week off I plan to take, all the cigars I plan to smoke, and all the single malt/Guinness I plan to drink.

As for other religious holidays, I don’t really fret about them. If someone wants to put up a Star of David or one of those candle thingies (a.k.a. Chanukkiyah :wink: ), or put up an Nativity scene or whatever…well, it doesn’t really bother me. Even if they want to put it up at the local court house. I just don’t get worked up about it…and some of the religious holidays are fun. We always celebrate Easter in my house, for instance, because it’s an excuse to hide eggs and give the kids candy and such.

-XT

9

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)?
[/quote]
I don’t. Got stuff to do.

Just because the religious believe in the immortal soul doesn’t make it so. I guess I could choose to believe lots of stuff if I felt the need to fill a gap in my life, but since I don’t feel any such gap, I don’t cling to stuff to fill it.

Well, I’ll be singing at my workplace’s Christmas Dinner. I’ve chosen Night and Day, which is proving to be quite a challenge. I thought about This is How You Remind Me as an easier alternative, but when I read the lyrics, I didn’t like how repetitive it was.

10

I hope you don’t mind, I edited your three questions for the sake of space.

  1. How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? …

I often take a somewhat glib attitude and describe myself as an apatheist: I don’t know if there is a god and I find the whole question pretty boring.

But in reality, I think there are things that we do not yet understand and that some people call all those unknown things “God.” Over time the number of things that are unknown has shrunk and so has God. One day, maybe we will enlighted ourselves to the point that God is out of a job.

  1. Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions…

The idea that I will live on forever in a paradise is appealing; so is the idea that dead loved ones are not really gone. But just because an idea is appealing, doesn’t make it true. It’s not the most comforting thought, but I try to live my life with cold-eyed realism. When people I know die, it hurts an awful lot; that doesn’t mean I’m going to engage in delusional thinking (at least I hope I don’t) just to make the pain go away.

  1. Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. …Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.

I resent the hell out of Christmas. I think the notion that it is just a secular holiday is nonsense, look at all the right wing pundits who are trying to use a supposed war on Christmas as wedge issue. Christmas is a state sponsored Christian holiday and it is just another reminder that as a non-Christian, I am not truly part of American culture.

All my adult life, I really try to avoid any kind of celebration of it. My wife, although an atheist, likes the tree and presents, etc. and I’ve given in a little. Mostly as an adult, I try to be out of the US for Christmas time. This will be I think the third year in a row where I will be in a Muslim country on Christmas. It’s pretty clear to me that I’m not going to win any war on Christmas, so I just try to avoid the whole thing.

11

I’ve drifted back and forth between atheism and agnosticism for quite a while now, but answering your questions as an atheist:

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)?
[/quote]

That’s not challenging at all, as I do not find it necessary to imagine that everything has a cause. What’s north of the north pole?

This is also not a challenge. I could win the lottery tomorrow, however reason tells me it’s likely that I won’t. Should I regret, today, not living with the certainty of coming into millions of dollars tomorrow? Or should I live today for all that it’s worth?

Again, this is not really a challenge. In my personal life, occasionally I go to church or celebrate religious holidays for reasons of politeness. I attend church weddings; I occasionally get invited to seders; I exchange Christmas gifts. I know my reasons for doing so; if other people think I have different reasons than I do then that’s pretty much their problem.

12

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
I have slogged thru portions of this thread because I found the original question interesting. So far I haven’t found the following specific but related topics addressed (if they have, please quote them or point me to the correct place), and am interested as a non-judgmental, open-minded believer in how atheists approach these topics.
…
Finally, let me state I’m not trying to start an argument or be insulting in these questions. I merely want to fight my own ignorance; thx for reading.
[/QUOTE]

First off, if everyone was as argumentative as you were in this post, the world would be a MUCH happier place. I found nothing at all insulting or disagreeable in your post. Thank you for reading and thank you for asking.

  1. Cosmologically- I believe the universe is a vast and fascinating thing. I think that life is so rare and precious it is to be cherished. How we came to be who and what we are is why I majored in cultural anthropology. The fact that so many mechanisms acting at random was able to create life is astounding and amazing. It makes me value life far more than I ever did when I believed that we were made from dust. Just please, don’t ever say evolution says we came from apes. Pretty please. :wink: I find comfort in that we are so similar to everything else on the planet, carbon based mammal. Neato. It allows me to feel connected to the Sun, the ground and worms. It makes me feel like we are a part of what is around us. I like that feeling.

  2. Immortality-The thought bores me to tears. I also think that focusing on an afterlife takes your focus on one of the greatest, most interesting things in the universe. Life. I strive to be a better person most days, not because I might get a nifty neato mansion in the sky, but because it enriches the quality of my life HERE and NOW to be a better person. I really like sleeping well and being able to look myself in the mirror.

  3. Religious Holidays: Eh, Tree, gifts, I love Christmas. I’ve recently wanted to attend a midnight mass but haven’t gotten around to it. No one does rituals quite like the Catholics.

It causes me sadness to see people living their entire lives for something that may not ever happen. Eat, sleep, drink heaven. IMHO, If I was a god, I’d be mighty pissed off I get credit for creating life and my followers seem to be so oblivious to the gift it is.

13

*How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)?
*
I deny that it’s valid. The universe just popped into existence, no cause necessary. I’ve yet to come across someone who convinced me otherwise.

*Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.
*
Nope. Since I don’t believe in immortality, how can I truly regret not having it? As an emotional response, this would only make sense to me if the religious truly went on and I didn’t. Don’t get me wrong, a longer life would be nice, but I actually feel pity for those who don’t live this life as though it’s the only one.
*Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.
*
I don’t find it a challenge at all. I recognise that holidays are divorced from their religious roots anyway, and I understand the all too human need for ritual to mark the passage of time and seasons. As long as no-one tries to make me go to church, I can have all the turkey, trees and presents I can handle, and I feel fine about it.

14

[QUOTE=CJJ*]

[How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.
[/quote]

The Big Bang theory is fine with me. I don’t really give it another thought. I know some of the smartest people in the world are currently studying the question, and I’m sure if they don’t find a definitive answer in my lifetime, then somebody further down the road will. Either way, I don’t lose any sleep over it. I’m pretty comfortable with the fact that I don’t have all the answers, and I’m pretty comfortable with the fact that I don’t need them, either.

I think Bender the Robot summed it up best when he said: “Afterlife? Pfft. If I’d thought I had to go through a whole 'nother life, I’d kill myself right now.”

I’d rather not celebrate religious holidays at all. Hell, I’d rather not celebrate any holidays at all. They’re just a lot of pressure and not a lot of fun. But I can’t just give it up because my family still enjoys Christmas and the like. I do draw the lines at some traditions though. For example, I don’t have religious iconography or nativity scenes during Christmas time. But ultimately, I just want lots of presents and food, and I’ll celebrate “Give Pepper Presents” day any time of the year.

15

The sheer scale and alien nature of the observable universe suggests to me that there would not be a God-in-man’s-image. Even if there was a creator operating on such a scale of time and space I don’t think we’d have enough in common to make it a meaningful relationship.

I am always going to feel a bit melancholy about having a finite lifetime, but since I happen to be conscious, I mustn’t grumble.

I don’t know anybody who is explicitly religious, but I’ve gone to Midnight Mass before a couple of times. I quite like singing loudly while sozzled in God’s house. Like faintly sacrilegious karaoke. It’s more the grotesque consumer frenzy and glam-rock xmas pop hits which do my head in, rather than the religious elements.

16

Could I add another challenge on this-

If there is no God or Afterlife or Ultimate Justice, then why is self-destructive despair not a valid life choice? What would you say to an atheist friend who decided not to live in a world in which kindness & cruelty both have the final same result?

17

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
Could I add another challenge on this-

If there is no God or Afterlife or Ultimate Justice, then why is self-destructive despair not a valid life choice? What would you say to an atheist friend who decided not to live in a world in which kindness & cruelty both have the final same result?
[/QUOTE]

Of course it is a life choice, and if someone makes that choice they live with the consequences.

How about this question? What motivation does someone who believes in an afterlife have to make this life worth a tinker’s dam? Don’t you think that someone who thinks THIS is all they have, will more likely, make the best use of it?

As far as kindness vs. cruelty. Let me put it to you in this light. I was raised a pious child. I was religious by choice. I sang the song “Jesus loves the little children.” As my father was molesting me. Explain to that child that Jesus loved me. Explain to that child why I had to suffer because someone else was forsaking goodness. Don’t give me that crap it made me stronger or a better person. I’d much rather be worse and weaker, thankyouverymuch. It is far easier to think evil just exists, rather than and all knowing, all powerful god sits back and lets it happen.

18

[QUOTE=CJJ*]

[ul]
[li]How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.[/li][li]Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.[/li][li]Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.[/li][/ul]

[/QUOTE]

Where did the universe come from? I don’t know. The Big Bang, in fact, most of what I think I know from modern physics about the universe is something I just really can’t get my head around. I end up with more (possible very stupid) questions.

Yes, being mortal is a bummer, but c’est la vie. I can wish for something else (heck, I’ve had a print of Tang Yin’s “Dreaming of Immortality in a Thatched Cottage” hanging in each of my living rooms over the last 25 years), but it’s just hard to argue with reality.

For Christmas, I celebrate with my sister(s) and their families (whichever ones are around any given year). I figure they’re doing Christmas, I’m doing the solstice; let’s have fun, give presents, eat goodies and have pretty lights and such. I note the occurrence of the solstices and equinoxes and the cross-quarter days. (A co-worker once mistook me for a Wiccan when she found out I took a personal holiday every February 2nd.) I pass on Easter. Yeah, if someone else is being a pain about it, then I’ll argue. But, personally, that’s been quite rare. I only remember one occasion when my “happy holidays” was criticized, and I just shrugged, said “bite me, doofus”, and walked away.

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[QUOTE=CJJ*]
How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.
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I find it to be entirely without merit, so there’s no challenge.

Not really. I have trouble imagining sincere belief in an afterlife, so lack of it doesn’t impact me. When death is, I am not, and when I am, death isn’t.

I live in a very secular nation where religion is a personal issue of a private nature, so this rarely comes up. When my vaguely New Agey Buddhist-but-doesn’t-know-what-it-means sister had a baby recently she made a big deal about having a naming ceremony instead of a baptism and I found it pretentious and wankerish.

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  1. At present, we have no way of knowing what pre-existed the Big Bang. Not knowing, however, is little excuse for making up some fairy tale. It is enough for me to say “I don’t know,” rather than to construct some story that goves me comfort. It strikes me as particularly ludicrous that so many folk are eager to go from “I don’t know” to constructing an extremely detailed belief system in which they “know” all manner of irrational things to be true.
    And, tho I am far from a scientist, the theories I have encountered concerning multiverses and such seem far more reasonable than some omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being. Unless you wish to simply posit God = nature, which strikes me as a bit of a cop out.

  2. I have known too many christians who have appeared to “tolerate” this life as something they pass thru in the hopes of some future existence. IMO, humanism is a philosophy for people who truly love life. Makes it all the more precious if it is all (we know) there is.
    I might like a whole bunch of magic stuff to come true, but my wanting doesn’t make it so.

  3. As has been said before, family, presents, candy, and cookies are good reasons for a celebration in my book. My “beliefs” put considerable value on an awareness of nature, with a nod to the ancient practices that predated modern religions and celebrated seasonal changes. So Christmas is of inherent significance as it occurs near the winter solstice - the days will be getting longer! Easter is a spring celebration of fertility and growth. Etc.