[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Why don’t you give me a laundry list of everything you think I should respond to, and I’ll get right on it.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not saying you should respond to anything at all, but what you choose to respond to (or not) says volumes. At this point, I’m just trying to find out why you felt it was unremarkable that a helpless animal was harmed for the sake of one person’s incredibly venomous intolerance. Given your tendency to tear into even the most innocuous of claims by people of faith, I would wager that had the anecdote been about a Christian refusing to treat an atheist couple’s pet, your opinion would already be registered.
[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
I depend on tips. I would be very curious to see how much my money would drop if I wore a sign that said “I am an Atheist.” Perhaps maybe we don’t get as much in your face challenges because most of us, try to avoid the subject. I’m not a closeted Atheist by any means, but I certainly don’t offer the info up.
[/QUOTE]
Do the other waitresses go around and say “I am a Christian”, or “I am a Muslim”…or “I have anal sex with my husband on tuesdays”?
[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
My husband is mildly religious. Which means basically that he thinks his beliefs should trump my lack of beliefs. The funny thing is, my lack of belief is always much easier to accommodate than his mild, mild beliefs. Christen my child? Uh, I won that one because he was too lazy to do what it took to get it done. Go to church? Well, I win that one too, mostly because my lack of belief says we get to sleep late and wear comfy clothes all day.
[/QUOTE]
Well, sounds like you married the right guy then. Congrats. What are you complaining about exactly? It seems to me that your beliefs are trumping your husband in all the practical ways.
[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
As for shitting on religion in this thread, guess what? I feel pressured by society to keep my mouth shut and put up with all the religious crap out there, if I am NOT free to relax it a bit and let out some tension in a thread titled “What Are Your Challenges In Being An Atheist?” then where the hell can I? As far as I’m concerned, if you have nothing better to do than come in here and tell me how wrong I am for being an atheist, or how perfectly perfect your perfect is, please, don’t let the door hit you on the ass.
[/QUOTE]
People who think the government is trying to control them through chips in their heads also feel the pressure. Doesn’t mean it’s real. I feel no pressure from society to keep my mouth shut. What I feel from society is pressure to conform to a standard of behavior of live and let live. This isn’t a religious thing IMHO. In my neighborhood there are people of various sects and religions…and folks like me who don’t have any. The ‘pressure’ is to not put on that sign and parade about saying “I am a Christian you heathens!” or “I am a Muslim, infidel!” or “I am an atheist you poor deluded saps”. You COULD do those things…but they would lead to conflict if you did them.
And why? No one is forcing you to go to church at gun point. No one is forcing you to put up a nativity scene in your front yard, or decorate for Easter. No one is really forcing you to do anything. It’s YOU and folks like you who carry that chip on their shoulders…you are looking for fights with society so you can show how different and superior you are to those poor deluded religious types. And a certain element of the rabid on the religious side will be more than happy to oblige you in that fight.
[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
Right now my biggest challenge is wondering why the hell the religous nutjobs won’t just leave Atheists alone, not even for ONE STINKIN’ THREAD.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I can see how repressed you are. This of course doesn’t get into the atheist nut jobs…
-XT
xtisme,
I am not a waitress.
Yes, others do wear signs. I see a ton of necklaces with crosses on them every day. It is in effect, a sign. Now, I wore a necklace that was left to me by my husbands Grandfather, it was a cross. Those who knew questioned me why I wore it. The cross meant nothing, the necklace meant something.
I absolutely believe that I married the right person. I had a 5 year relationship with a guy that was Jewish. Most of my friends are on the religious bandwagon and know that I am not. While they pretty consistently try to convert me or pray for me or tell me that I actually do believe in god, they are also more the tolerant variety, as our relationships show. That is the exception. The number of times I have announced my Atheism and been called amoral or crazy or been shunned far out-number the fundy friends I keep. Heck, one of my most favorite posters here is by all accounts of my set of beliefs, an absolute nutjob. However, she is such a nice person and presents her views in such a non-judgmental, non-jerk way, that I absolutely, without a doubt, respect her as a person.
I don’t pick fights. For the most part, I avoid religious discussions. I find them tedious and painful. I came into this thread because it was about something I experience. Lo and behold, I get to be called names for participating in a thread that by all accounts, shouldn’t have the religious folks in here harassing us.
To participate in this thread, we don’t have to be militant Atheists, we just need to be Atheists that have experienced challenges for being such.
I’m holding back. Understand that the reason I am holding back is that I think this thread has validity in its intended purpose, to find out what challenges Atheists face. Maybe someone on the fence is wondering what life is like without deistic faith, maybe we can help each other learn how to deal with the issues that we faith, but noooo, we can’t have that, NOT EVEN IN ONE THREAD.
One of the flaws in your logic is that you think that I think that I’m better than anyone. As a general rule, I don’t. I certainly don’t because of whatever faith or lack thereof I may or may not have, nor do I make assumptions about the quality of people using that same standard. Basically, I assume you are a pretty ok human being until you prove to me otherwise.
So would you mind, doing as I asked, stop shitting on this thread, go find a religious one and leave us the hell alone with your religious bullshit?
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Thank Og we nobody went overboard and compared them to members of Stormfront, because that really would be a silly comparison.
[/QUOTE]
Like I said, i’ve not been to Stormfront, so I really wouldn’t know if the comparison is accurate or not. Having said that, I did say i’d probably disagree with it. I’d apologise on behalf of religious people for the comparison, but i’m not one, and i’m not entirely happy doing it anyway.
Just as a general observation, do people not realise they’re actually hurting themselves like this? Religious people are mean to them, so atheists go take it out on some other seperate religious people (because only cheap pettiness can give satisfaction), so those religious people jab back at other innocent atheists, and so it all passes on in a great chain of people saying “Well, I was hurt first, that gives me the right to be a bastard to people who haven’t done anything to me but are part of their group!”
Bastards is bastards. We could just stick to that.
[QUOTE=xtisme]
If there really WAS an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing entity, how would you know what he/she/it was asking was ‘wrong’?
[/QUOTE]
I know the difference between right and wrong.
[QUOTE=xtisme]
What if ‘God’ asked you to kill a child…but this all seeing, all knowing, all powerful entity knew that by killing that child you would save billions? Say ‘God’ ordered you to wack a young German infantry corporal in 1916…one that really hadn’t done anything wrong? Say he wanted you to kill a Russian child born on December 21, 1879, in the Georgian village of Gori? Or maybe ‘God’ asked you to do something else that you THOUGHT was wrong…but it turned out that it was really the right thing to do if only you knew what ‘God’ knew?
[/QUOTE]
Gods should try to be more convincing, I guess? If I knew what gods knew and had the powers that gods have, I might try engineering situations so people could act in clear conscience. As it is, it sounds like you’ve crafted a way for people to commit crimes and atrocities and absolve themselves. “I wouldn’t have done it, but I was doing god’s will!”
[QUOTE=xtisme]
Granted, I don’t think there IS this all powerful, all seeing, all knowing being…but if there was, how would you judge what s/he/it was telling you from your non-all seeing, knowing, blah blah blah perspective?
[/QUOTE]
Probably far more harshly than I’d judge a lesser being. How monumentally must you screw up as an all-powerful, all-knowing being that the only way out for you is to command someone to murder a child? And your only hope is that they have faith enough to convince themselves that this wrong action is Good in some mysterious way? This is a god who plays games.
[QUOTE=xtisme]
It’s a silly question because a theist DOES believe in that all seeing, all knowing, etc etc being…so they would have a ready answer to give you. And one that you really can’t dispute as there is no way to PROVE anything (this is, btw, why I’m an agnostic 
)…
[/QUOTE]
The questions deal with whether or not theists are insane. Its really not important how they justify their inability to tell right from wrong.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
I not only would refuse, I would cease to worship Him.
[/QUOTE]
How about if he asked someone else? Or did it himself?
[QUOTE=1010011010]
How about if he asked someone else?
[/quote]
I can’t know whether He asked someone else unless He tells me Himself that He did, and He hasn’t.
Same as the answer I gave before. I’d no longer worship Him. (I would answer part III now, but I’ll wait to see exactly how you phrase it.)
[QUOTE=Auntbeast to xtisme]
I’m holding back. Understand that the reason I am holding back is that I think this thread has validity in its intended purpose, to find out what challenges Atheists face. Maybe someone on the fence is wondering what life is like without deistic faith, maybe we can help each other learn how to deal with the issues that we faith, but noooo, we can’t have that, NOT EVEN IN ONE THREAD.
[/QUOTE]
Do you think you could express the challenges you face in terms other than our stupidity and insanity? I mean, I face a lot of challenges — intolerance, rudeness, and whatnot — from people whose religion is completely unknown to me. For people on the fence, it may sound like you’re more obsessed with religion than are people of faith themselves. The opening salvo here was that we’re brainwashed and now we’re being called nutjobs. Some of you won’t even treat our sick pets. If you consider those things to be your challenges, you may benefit from a new sense of perspective.
[QUOTE=mhendo]
I must say, i have to agree with Liberal about some of the needless potshots in this thread.
It seems to me that arguing from a standpoint that equates religion with insanity and irrationality is not only a pretty offensive way to begin a discussion, but is contradicted by centuries of demonstrated sanity and rationality on the part of religious people of all religions and denominations.
This thread was started with a view to asking atheists what “challenges” they faced due to their atheism. It seems to me that taking the opportunity to launch broadsides at the sanity and rationality of religious people in general is not really in the spirit of the thread. YMMV.
I originally composed a longer post, complete with historical arguments supporting my position that religion and rationality are not mutually exclusive, but i think i’ll leave it at that for now.
[/QUOTE]
My meaining was that the current world climate and the way it seems to be heading is insane. Not that religion is insane. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear.
I stand by my belief that sanity/rationality is disturbingly rare in those in power, especially in the USA and ‘rogue states’, and particularly in those who incorproate religiousity into their govorning. It’s not a pot-shot at religion, it’s a pot-shot at the way religion is used to run the world.
[QUOTE=Lobsang]
My meaining was that the current world climate and the way it seems to be heading is insane. Not that religion is insane. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear.
I stand by my belief that sanity/rationality is disturbingly rare in those in power, especially in the USA and ‘rogue states’, and particularly in those who incorproate religiousity into their govorning. It’s not a pot-shot at religion, it’s a pot-shot at the way religion is used to run the world.
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, but can you understand how people might interpret this post as a blanket assertion about religion?
[QUOTE=mhendo]
Fair enough, but can you understand how people might interpret this post as a blanket assertion about religion?
[/QUOTE]
Yes I can. I can be careless at times.
I don’t mean to make short ill-conceived anti-religious statements, but sometimes it’s hard not to.
I should leave debates like this up to my much more eloquent fellow Atheist-Dopers.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
I feel for your mother. Not one mention of love.
[/quote]
Honestly, I intentionally left out details like that so as to avoid giving you a soapbox from which to compose a page-long post in which you wax philosophical on the nature of Love and it’s relationship to God while asking the standard probing questions regarding how I Know that my mom loves me. I think it should be quite obvious from the context of my post that I love my mother and she loves me. I wouldn’t go over there for Thanksgiving if I hated the woman.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
I’m not sure why you believe there is any onus upon Him to convince you of anything. If I’m trying to establish a relationship with two people, and one is responsive and respectful while the other makes ridiculous demands and mocks me, I might favor the former over the latter… If not, you’ve already told Him to leave you alone, so what are you complaining about?
[/quote]
If you recall, in this post you asked “…what would constitute proof or evidence [of God]?” and followed-up with the reasonable point that the ability to do something Really Neat™ doesn’t necessarily make someone God. The text you quoted was a response to this point. Specifically, that God can look into my mind and know exactly what He’d need to do to convince me. It might not be something I can relate to you on a message board, but if He’s God, He knows what it is and ought to be able to do it.
I don’t mock God and, in fact, I can’t mock God because I don’t believe He exists. Also, if asking God to provide a quick demonstration of His existence is a “ridiculous demand” then all those people who pray for God to heal grandma’s cancer must be worse than Hitler! And no, I haven’t told Him to “leave me alone.” It might surprise you to learn that we’ve never spoken because, as I keep saying, he doesn’t seem to exist.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Hillarious, given that this was originally a thread for you people to lick your wounds.
[/quote]
Well, at least it was until the Christian Pity Party showed up.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
No. I don’t understand. How can I be both smart and stupid?
[/quote]
You can’t really be so hurt by the words of a few malcontents on the internet, can you? At most, people are saying “God belief is stupid” rather than “Everyone who believes in God is stupid.” Just for kicks, I rifled through the thread to see how often the word “stupid” was used to describe religious people. Would you like to know what I found? One, two, three, and four posts… all from you.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Even if we give the most generous interpretation to some of the posts (like those from recessiveMeme, for example) we end up with something similar to the more temperate posters on Stormfront who willingly acknowledge that there are some good Negroes among the bad.
[/quote]
What a load! Would you mind pointing out which of my posts says, “Durr, all Christians is DUM!!!” I imagine you’re referring to this post wherein I strip you of the right to assert the existence of a being for whom there is (debatebly) absolutely no evidence and then get huffy when someone says, “Nuh uh!” You’re the one who is heaping derision on Christians in general, not me. My parents, whom I love (even my mom!) and respect, are both Christians. Most of my extended family, too! Heck, if you can believe the polls just about everyone I meet when I go outside is probably some sort of Christian. I don’t assume any of them are stupid or insane. I think they’re nice people who, for a variety of reasons, have chosen to believe something that I don’t seem to be able to believe. Such is life. But hey, if it turns your crank, don’t let me stop your ride on the persecution pony. Happy trails.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
I’m not saying you should respond to anything at all, but what you choose to respond to (or not) says volumes.
[/QUOTE]
Don’t you have to factor in the whole “he has a life” element, which may lead to interesting topics not being discussed because he has some aversion to them, but because he has stuff to do and writing posts on the Dope pays zip?
Anyway, I could buy that recessiveMeme loves his (her?) Mom, as indicated by the willingness to go to her house on Thanksgiving. I went over at her house last Arbor Day for some good lovin’ too, giggety.
(I hide the challenges of my atheism behind a facade of humour)
[QUOTE=Lobsang]
My meaining was that the current world climate and the way it seems to be heading is insane. Not that religion is insane. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear.
I stand by my belief that sanity/rationality is disturbingly rare in those in power, especially in the USA and ‘rogue states’, and particularly in those who incorproate religiousity into their govorning. It’s not a pot-shot at religion, it’s a pot-shot at the way religion is used to run the world.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you very much for clearing that up, Lobsang. I can definitely sympathize with being misread, and I’m sorry as well that I took the worst possible interpretation. (I will say, though, that officially atheist states can be quite [sub]Kim Jung Il[/sub] irrational.)
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Don’t you have to factor in the whole “he has a life” element, which may lead to interesting topics not being discussed because he has some aversion to them, but because he has stuff to do and writing posts on the Dope pays zip?
[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. It was a mere curiosity to me that in the course of his busy life, he chose to ignore veterinary abuse but pursue a board analogy.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Absolutely. It was a mere curiosity to me that in the course of his busy life, he chose to ignore veterinary abuse but pursue a board analogy.
[/QUOTE]
A “mere curiosity” “speaks volumes”? What would a moderate curiosity say? An encyclopedia? Would a major curiosity be one of those “if every atom in the universe was a printing press” deals?
Eh, I’m just bustin’ yer chops…
[QUOTE=recessiveMeme]
Honestly, I intentionally left out details like that so as to avoid giving you a soapbox from which to compose a page-long post in which you wax philosophical on the nature of Love and it’s relationship to God while asking the standard probing questions regarding how I Know that my mom loves me. I think it should be quite obvious from the context of my post that I love my mother and she loves me. I wouldn’t go over there for Thanksgiving if I hated the woman.
[/quote]
Frankly, I wondered why you chose to make such a big deal over such a non-controversial point, namely that it is hard to describe anyone briefly. It is very easy to leave out something that the other person might think is absolutely essential. You’ll recall that I was asked to describe God so that the person could know exactly what I meant by the term. I spent more than an hour thoughtfully composing a reply that I hoped would hit all the philosophical buttons with as much brevity as I could muster. Your decision to step in between the other poster and me was something of a surprise. Your decision to paraphrase and parse what I said with such sarcasm and ridicule was a bit jarring.
But it is also the case that you are a temporal being and don’t know what’s around the corner. You cannot use the fact that God has not done that for you yet as evidence either for or against His existence. I was myself taken by surprise when it happened to me.
It is a catch-all term for everything from brainwashed to insane. I already posted a manifest of the actual insults, complete with post number references.
Well, I appreciate that. Maybe we got off on the wrong foot. If you’ll forgive me, I’ll make an effort to drop my guard in the future. (Incidentally, please don’t be cavalier about my rights. I will not allow you to deny them from me unless you have government sized guns.)
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Eh, I’m just bustin’ yer chops…
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know. 
The board would suck without you. (Seriously.)
Thank you, that’s very kind.
Wow, do you usually seek out people who are licking their wounds and scream at them for not doing it in a manner that suits you? Honestly, dude, please come down from your cross and go somewhere else.
Yeah, I’m sure vetbridge is the only veterinarian in his area.
That’s what I thought this thread was about, too.
Is there a reason that you’re taking these things personally? I didn’t take them as meaning “all Christians”, at least to any meaningful extent, but your defensiveness is making me start to wonder.