A couple things to consider here… One, you apparently have fine taste in feisty, older women. Two, my dad’s gonna be pissed.
Noted and appreciated. In the future I’ll look for ways to tone down the “strident atheist” vibe. I fear text doesn’t always convey my particular idiom that well-- I’m ever so much more agreeable in meatspace. 
In a thread that is presumably FOR atheists, I find your response depressing. Unless of course, in exchange for not being a “strident atheist” in atheist themed threads you become a “strident atheist” in theistic threads.
If not here, then where? And what the heck is wrong with being as strident in your beliefs as others?
Challenges in being an atheist? Well, I face a danger of sprain when I roll my eyes too hard or have to stifle laughter to be socially polite. I don’t feel this is too much of a burden, considering this also extends to other subjects, such as history, politics, or magical thinking/new age BS/horoscopes, whatever.
Perhaps this is just my own personal experience, but does it seem to anyone else that women are the most histrionic fundamentalists? When I reveal my true beliefs to another guy they don’t seem to care as much. They’ll want to debate me or talk about evolution or morality or something. But a woman is liable to get in my face and scream, ask about my upbringing, put down my parents, ask why I’m such a weirdo, why do I worship the devil, or, as someone else noted, insist “you’re not an atheist!” I’ve also had the “I didn’t take you for an atheist, you’re such a nice guy” line dropped on me, the tone as if she just discovered I was a puppy raper.
If we’re all strident, then there’s nothing but noise and heat among us. If we’ll just listen to one another, some of the challenges that we have with each other might begin to disappear. Because Bryan, recessiveMeme, Lobsang, mhendo, and others from earlier in the thread have chosen to take the high road, some peace has broken out. Better to eliminate the challenges we face with disarming grace than to exacerbate those challenges with puffed up aggression.
Live somewhere else more tolerant! That’s my advice. I don’t understand how atheism can be treated this way. Most other western countries don’t give a shit what you believe.
It might come up as an interesting topic of conversation, but aside from that and annoying people who knock on your door on a Saturday morning giving you pamphlets, it’s pretty much a non-issue.
Man, if hinting I’d done the nasty with Meme’s mom is the high road…
Oh, about religion… yeah, I don’t get angry about it.
Have you seen the episode of John Safran vs. God where Safran and one of his camera crew people dressed up with white shirts and black pants and ties with name badges (“John Safran - Atheist”), got on bicycles, and rode around Salt Lake City waking people up on Saturday morning to pass out pamphlets about the Origin of Species? Comedy gold, especially since they flew in from Sydney to do it.
Hmmm… Perhaps a big challenge I face is the inability to please people. On the one hand, my “Anyone who’s ever come within ten feet of a church should be declared mentally incompetent and shot into the sun” screed gets no traction with the theists. On the other hand, my “I feel theistic belief is questionable and I don’t mind saying as much but I’d probably drink a beer with you anyway unless you’re a total ass” approach doesn’t seem to sit well with vociferous atheists. Come to think of it, the Al-Anon folks don’t like that bit about the beer, either.
All cheekiness aside though, when does it ever behoove anyone to press their view in a way that is, according to m-w.com, “characterized by harsh, insistent, and discordant sound?” I don’t know that there’s anything “wrong” with being as strident in my beliefs as others, but I happen to think that calm, reasoned, responses are ever so much more compelling and thought-provoking than the alternative. Sorry to be depressing. How’s about the next time I’m feeling particularly strident I punch a nun in the boob for you? If that doesn’t brighten your day I’m not sure what would.
Well, it was Arbor Day. Honestly, who doesn’t like trees? Now if it’d been Columbus Day…
Wait a minute-- where were you on the second Monday in October?
Celebrating Canadian Thanksgiving.
On your sister!
I don’t often open religious threads in IMHO (where this was first posted), so I have no idea whether there are a lot of interruptions, there, but in GQ and GD it is virtually impossible to open a thread on a religious topic without some non-believer wandering by to make a snide remark about the beliefs of the other posters.
As long as it is simply a drive-by that does not derail the thread, I generally do not stomp on the authors of such posts in GD, but on a message board (and in a Forum) where the default setting is sneer at the believers, you will forgive me if I am not moved to tears that believers have actually had the temerity to post in this thread.
If some ardent theist wanders in and begins proselytizing or condemning the non-believers to hell, I will intervene to put a stop to their actions. Until you persuade your fellow non-believers to refrain from commenting on the belief of other posters in threads addressing beliefs, I see no reason to give you some sort of special thread to which only certain posters are invited.
As to earlier claims of “shitting” on this thread, only six posts in GD even use the term “threadshitting” and only two involve religious belief, with one accusation by a believer and one accusation by a non-believer. Minus the leading “thread-,” one has to go back to March, 2005, to find a complaint that someone was “shitting” on a religious thread, and that was a personal feud between two posters in which the religious aspect was almost coincidental.
There is a definite bias in the U.S. against non-believers, but this thread was opened for the purpose of discussing personal challenges that non-believers faced in their daily lives–a point that has resulted in a pretty even spilit between those who seem to catch a fair amount of grief and those for whom there is no serious aggravation. If you find yourself harrassed, irritated, or otherwise bothered for your lack of belief, by all means post it. But please spare us the claims that your rights or views are being trampled or suppressed in this particular venue.
Hark, gentle Marshmallow! I beg your indulgence. With your permission, I submit my offer of a slight disagreement with you. Perhaps it is merely the nature of our higher pitched voices that makes us seem so to you. But I could be wrong, of course, for I am only a woman.
No, no, no. Not a total dick at all – except in the investigative sense. (He’s Sherlock Holmes, you know.)
I’m doing some rather heavy cutting in my quotes to get this post down to manageable size. In so doing, I try to find the bits that state the core of your points. Please tell me if I cut something essential, or something that changes the meaning.
I can describe my mother. In many different ways, if necessary.
By this definition, I believe in God, since I believe in objective reality. I would never, ever call it God by my own volition, though.
“The source of all knowledge and wisdom” is, to me, just another way of saying “objective reality”.
As you know, English is my second language. The definitions of “edify” that I’ve found say that it means instruct/inform/enlighten/benefit/strengthen, especially morally or spiritually. Unfortunately these definitions have not enabled me to grasp what you mean by “goodness is that which edifies”. Is there a way to clarify or give an example?
If I were to be, of my own free will, totally good by your definition of “good”, would I then be God?
Absolutely. I’m the first one to despise the vengeance view of justice.
I suspect, as I’ve done before, that even if I saw all the above through your eyes, there would still be questions remaining. For example, while we’ve never spoken on this subject directly, you do mention Jesus in this context, so you seem to be ascribing to a Christian view. How did you come to the conclusion that the Galilean crucified two thousand years ago had anything to do with the single objective reality that edifies, is the source of all knowledge and wisdom?
Yeah, but megalomaniacal atheist states transfer the God worship to Leader worship in the hearts and minds of the people. Or, at least, they try to. I don’t think that so much says “Atheist leaders are evil” as it says “Insane leaders think they’re God.”
Making a house out of a pile of lumber might be one example. Making a sad person happy might be another.
Yes, absolutely. And I would worship you.
It was very much in the manner that **SentientMeat ** described. One moment, I was a very hard atheist; the next moment, my whole worldview changed. It was instantaneous and complete. Everything I had believed before was replaced with new knowledge and/or a new way of looking at things. One of the new things I knew was that the Galilean is God. Every day since that day, that knowledge has been confirmed for me.
I never intended to say that “atheist leaders are evil”. I intended to say that they CAN be. And they can.
Touche. I should have said he’s an asshole.
Self deification is not atheism.
My only challenge is reaching over to turn the radio to another frequency when ‘Thought For the Day’ comes on. It occasionally irritates me that the Christian guy on BBC Radio 2 never seems to consider Atheism when he’s trying to be all encompassing. He’ll say things like ‘no matter what your religion, blah blah blah’, or ‘whoever your god may be’. It’s the same on some discussion programs on BBC Radio4.
To be honest, I have a harder time being short. I certainly don’t think Atheism is discriminated against in this country. At any level. It’s just sometimes… Overlooked.
I think this illustrates the difference. In Britain, unlike the US and many other countries, being religious in public does not help your credibility.
And I am not a theist. Look up the term ‘agnostic’ sometime, ehe?
Cry me a river. So, people who do believe in religion wear religious symbols? Say it ain’t so. And you, poor little down trodden atheist, are force to bear a cross that means nothing to you? And all because…what? Atheists don’t actually HAVE a symbol?
How about getting a bunch of religious symbols from various religions around the world and putting them inside a big red circle with a slash through them? You could be Religious Busters™!
Who called you a name? Do you feel you have been persecuted in this thread by the theist types? AFAICT, it’s mostly bored atheists/agnostics who are doing the majority of heckling here…essentially telling the chip on their shoulder crowd that this supposed persecution of atheists by theists is pretty much over blown if you put it in the context of, say, what happened to blacks or hispanics (or many other minority groups) in the US through history. Native Americans have been persecuted…atheists have by and large been ignored.
Don’t hold back. Here is a thought though…try to actually read what people are saying instead of making assumptions and going off half cocked, ehe?
So far I haven’t seen anything much that really tugs the heart strings for challenges in being an atheist. As I said earlier up thread I have never faced any challenges myself…and I come from a highly Catholic family. I work for a company run by basically a frothing at the mouth Christian fundy who KNOWS I’m an atheist (he makes no distinction between agnostics and atheists)…and the most I’ve gotten from him was a highly weird discussion where it was clear I knew more about the bible than he did.
Face it…the ‘challenges’ to being an atheist are over blown. If folks didn’t walk around with a huge chip on their shoulders and try and assert that the religious types are all loons or stupid/wrong atheists would pretty much go through life with few problems. Stopping stupid initiatives by the fundy types to put prayer in school or teach something wacked out like creationism/ID is where we should make our stand…and that’s political. Getting all worked up about a nativity scene at city hall during Christmas season is just looking for trouble in a country that has a majority Christian (and psudo-Christian) population…it’s looking for trouble to no good cause.
Want to show me some challenges? Cites have been asked for…so lets see them. What are the practical problems to being an atheist? Show me people being fired as a matter of course because they are atheists. Lets see people denied service or told to move to the back of the bus because they are atheists. Show me some real persecution comparable to what minority groups have suffered in the US…then I’ll start believing there is something here. My own anecdotal experience coupled with the lack of me ever hearing about such persecutions leads me to think that this whole ‘challenge’ thingy comes down to a few atheists with chips on their shoulders confronting some equally loud and obnoxious religious types, also with chip.
Well, I mind that you didn’t actually read what I wrote, obviously comprehended less, and made a ridiculous assumption based on…well, who knows what. Nor did I shit on your thread with ‘religious bullshit’.
-XT