What Are Your Challenges In Being An Atheist?

Great Debates
281

[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
This post:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9202808&postcount=125

Is pretty darn dismissive of atheists challenges posted. Just as an example sir.

For the record, tomndebb, I’m not sure if I’m arguing with you as a person or a moderator. I’ve not had any run-ins with folks with Mod hats on, but I am operating as if you are not wearing your hat, even though I think this is a pretty grey area because you are participating in a thread I feel you should have been moderating better.
[/QUOTE]
Following an exchange in which the issue of persecution was raised, I pointed out that most of the examples of challenges given are common to believers and non-believers. If you find that dismissive, that would indicate to me that you have a similar approach to the issue expressed by certain Fundametalist Christians who really believe in their hearts the silly claim that they are persecuted. Many people fear “others” and that fear can be directed toward believers of the “wrong sort” as easily as at people who hold no belief. That is a neutral observation.
I did not move the thread away from the opinion poll Forum. Once it landed here, I expressed an opinion. If you want to challenge my views, demonstrate actual opposing facts rather than simply attacking me for having an opinion. Otherwise, you could simply ignore my opinion as being one that was in accord with a rather large number of atheists who have posted to this thread.

If you attack my Moderating, you are arguing with a Mod. If you attack my opinions, you are arguing with me. I’m not sure why it matters, in that nothing you have said has given me any cause to do more than parry your claims. Given the rather large number of atheist posters who have expressed the view that they (personally) do not find challenges in their lives based on atheism, I would think that you would be better off addressing their blindness. Aside from addressing things that I have not said, there have only been two hijacks in this thread since it was moved to GD, one inadvertant, and I have shut each off. If you can find an opinion thread of more than two pages in which the OP is rigorously followed without a single by-play discussion, I would be most impressed to have it shown to me.

(I am aware that xtisme identifies as an agnostic rather than an atheist. I have been quite careful to refer to non-believers, not atheists in this discussion, as several of the earlier posters identified as agnostic rather than atheist and nothing in the OP seemed to demand that agnostics had to stay out of the thread.)

282

Oh, hi! You must be the new left fielder.

283

[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
Amen brother. That is one thing that truly bothers me. Knowing full well if I was as open about my atheism as folks are about their christianity, the quality of my life would certainly suffer. Interestingly, the same people I believe would judge me harshly, like me just fine without knowing. (or dislike me, for that matter) I don’t change in the scenario, the perception of me changes.
[/QUOTE]

This is a dilemma shared by many minority groups where it’s not obvious at first sight who is a member of the group (gays and religious groups are examples of this- a race is an example of a group where it’s more obvious at first sight who is a member). There are situations where you as an individual are better off not publicizing your membership in the group. But if everybody does that, nothing happens to challenge the negative stereotypes other people hold of that group.

There’s a related dilemma, too. You as an individual might feel better for saying something insensitive about someone else’s religion, but doing so doesn’t really help the image of atheists in general in the eyes of non-atheists. Judaism actually has a rule on this- you’re not supposed to act in a way that would discredit Judaism in the minds of gentiles. For example, if you have a “gefilte” fish sticker on your car, you shouldn’t drive like a jerk, because people who see you might think that Judaism is OK with people driving like jerks. Conversely, if you’re going to act like a jerk, you shouldn’t be advertising the fact that you’re Jewish while you do it. (I suspect this rule originated as a survival tactic for Jews living in societies dominated by non-Jews)

One of the challenges of being a member of a minority group is that you don’t always have the luxury of doing what you like and assuming that what you do won’t affect how others think of the group in general.

That may well be a challenge that atheists have to a greater degree than other religious minorities do. Other religious minorities do get accused of having no morals, but most religions have some sort of written moral code that we can show to others when they accuse us of having no morals. You don’t. The only way you can show people you have morals is by acting in ways consistent with those morals, which is much harder than just citing a written moral code. Or you can try to prove to someone that morality can exist without a religious basis, but that’s also hard (especially since some popular religions explicitly say it can’t).

284

Actually, I’m glad you gave this reminder. It’s easy for me to forget, but you’re right that it applies equally well now that I’m not religious as it did before. And a lot of people–many Christians included, in some contexts–still feel they have to do this to win long-denied respect. In many cases, they’re right, as unfortunate as it is to put that pressure on people.

285

The problem is that you apparently think responding ‘I am an atheist, I do not go to church.’ to someone at work who asks you where you attend church is ‘shoving it in the general publics faces every chance you get.’

Would you call it ‘shoving it in the general publics faces every chance you get’ if atheists had a billboard like the one I saw driving home from work today proclaiming “Feeling doubts and worries? Turn to Jesus” that said “Feeling doubts and worries? Turn to Atheism.”?

The problem, xtisme, is that the theists are given a pass on all of their truly in-your-face tactics, while you blanch at the idea that I actually said ‘I am an atheist’ to a coworker who after telling me a long involved story about his bishop and how he just loves to be involved with the church asked ‘Where do you attend church?’

The problem is that the only one in that situation you think was doing any attacking was the atheist.

286

[QUOTE=catsix]
The problem is that you apparently think responding ‘I am an atheist, I do not go to church.’ to someone at work who asks you where you attend church is ‘shoving it in the general publics faces every chance you get.’
[/QUOTE]

Well, no…actually I don’t think that. I think that is a perfectly reasonable answer, honestly. If someone busted your chops for that then I’d support your right to cut them off at the knees, verbally speaking. I’ve done something similar myself a time or to…shocking, I know, considering my well deserved reputation for calmness and light.

I don’t see this as being overly oppressive though.

[QUOTE=catsix]
Would you call it ‘shoving it in the general publics faces every chance you get’ if atheists had a billboard like the one I saw driving home from work today proclaiming “Feeling doubts and worries? Turn to Jesus” that said “Feeling doubts and worries? Turn to Atheism.”?
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I’d say that would be throwing it in the publics face…though it walks the line on that one. It’s borderline. Certainly it’s going to cause a reaction…and if a reaction was your desire you are going to get it. And really it’s causing a reaction for no good purpose. Are you REALLY out there trying to convince the plebes that they need to come over to the dark side and join atheists/agnostics? To what purpose? People come to OUR side through introspection and knowledge…and, if I might make so bold, because they are at least nominally smarter than the common herd (in my mind I’m seeing heads explode by theist types all over). JMHO there…no facts to back it up. And not to say that theists aren’t smart…I just think that people who make the cross over from being a theist to becoming an agnostic (and I suppose an atheist), and has done so by looking inward and also by really looking into and knowing the theists sides of things…well, I think that in general these are fairly smart folks.

So…putting up a sign like that is rather silly. There doesn’t need to be a tit for tat…everything the theists types do doesn’t have to be repeated on ‘our’ side. If the theists want to put up a Nativity scene at the local court house than let them…we don’t need to put up a religious-busters symbol to counter balance it. We don’t need to go over and kick over their symbols or torture these folks by pointing out how dumb/wrong they are.

We need to fight the good fights, the needful fights, the meaningful fights…the fights that actual count and matter. THOSE fights involve when the religious types actually DO try and interpose on society as a whole their thinking. When they try and push prayer in school, put teaching religious oriented subjects, push teaching psudo-science in the place of REAL science…THEN we have to make our stand and take up arms.

[QUOTE=catsix]
The problem, xtisme, is that the theists are given a pass on all of their truly in-your-face tactics, while you blanch at the idea that I actually said ‘I am an atheist’ to a coworker who after telling me a long involved story about his bishop and how he just loves to be involved with the church asked ‘Where do you attend church?’
[/QUOTE]

Well, it was your strawman that I blanched at that…it doesn’t really bear any resemblance to my actual thoughts on that. It doesn’t sound like such a horrible confrontation to me…I note you didn’t mention lynchings or car dragging s, no crosses burned at your house, etc. Seems pretty mild…probably because what you did isn’t what I would characterize as throwing it in their faces. Kicking over a Nativity Scene or torturing the faithful in a strident and loud voice…THAT is throwing it in their faces.

What you have are a small number of theists that feel the need to throw their beliefs in other peoples faces. I don’t know how much of a ‘pass’ they are given either…especially by people in other religions. I know those nice young men who wander the streets trying to get folks to open their doors so they can be saved don’t usually get much of a reception around here. I’d be willing to concede that there are more strident, chip on their shoulder types who are theists than atheists (not many agnostics go for the whole shoulder chip thingy…and we are also better looking and much hotter than the other types).

[QUOTE=catsix]
The problem is that the only one in that situation you think was doing any attacking was the atheist.
[/QUOTE]

No…the problem is that YOU think there was an attack at all. From what you posted in this post there WAS no attack on anyone. I don’t see your Cow-orker having attacked you…and I don’t think your own response was at all inappropriate. Had your Cow-orker gotten out the Candle, Bell and Book and started to chant…well, that might have been a problem (but probably fun to watch).

I just don’t see what you describe as being much of a challenge. Someone rambles on about their religion and what kind of smock thingy the priest was wearing, and how the incense smelled today, blah blah blah. It could be them talking about their kids and their diapers for all of me…same level of I don’t care-edness. You tell them, I assume, quite politely in with no need for histrionics or foam that you are an atheist. They look at you puzzled and wander off aimlessly looking for someone to bless. Nuff said. Even if they want to get into a religious argument with them, if you have done your homework you should be able to mop the floor with them…in a nice way of course.

What you describe in this post isn’t the same as some of the atheists Ive see who DO have a chip on their shoulders, and who ARE looking for a fight with any religious theist who crosses their paths. They WANT to have that confrontation, and so they go out of their way to tell theist types that they are wrong, that they are ignorant, that they are stupid, that they smell funny, etc etc. And when atheists do that…well, they get the confrontation they manufactured. At that point I have no doubt that some atheists storm off in confusion about how persecuted they are by those damned theists…

-XT

287

xtisme, do you think that it is too in-your-face for theists to advertise on a billboard?

Another example of the double standard applied to atheists that bothers me. You’re still proclaiming that exactly the same level of public display of atheism as there is public display of theism means the atheists are wrong.

That dog just don’t hunt.

288

[QUOTE=catsix]
Another example of the double standard applied to atheists that bothers me. You’re still proclaiming that exactly the same level of public display of atheism as there is public display of theism means the atheists are wrong.
[/QUOTE]

Not at all. There IS nothing for atheists to display in public. There is no symbol of atheism, for instance. No ‘church of atheism’. Not standard atheist creed. In short, there isn’t any purpose to displaying your atheism and throwing it in the publics face.

On the other side of things, people DO belong to various churches. They DO have religious symbols. They DO have a standard creed. In short, they DO have a purpose in displaying their religious symbols, especially during NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED RELIGIOUS CELEBRATIONS. You know, like Christmas?

I don’t see this as a double standard at all. There is no more purpose in loudly proclaiming you are an atheist than my tongue in cheek assertion that you should tell people about what kind of sex you have on Tuesday nights. If someone ASKS you then to be sure…tell them. I do (about the religious thing…some secrets are mine to keep :)). But wanting to put up counter displays that atheists don’t even HAVE?? Exactly what purpose do YOU think that serves except to antagonize? Are you really so petty that because they do it you think we should too??? Want to make sure the pie is evenly split right down the middle so we get as big a slice as they do or something??

[QUOTE=catsix]
That dog just don’t hunt.
[/QUOTE]

Nope…it sure won’t. Also, you can lead a horse to water but you can only beat it to death once.

-XT

289

[QUOTE=catsix]
The problem is that you apparently think responding ‘I am an atheist, I do not go to church.’ to someone at work who asks you where you attend church is ‘shoving it in the general publics faces every chance you get.’

Would you call it ‘shoving it in the general publics faces every chance you get’ if atheists had a billboard like the one I saw driving home from work today proclaiming “Feeling doubts and worries? Turn to Jesus” that said “Feeling doubts and worries? Turn to Atheism.”?

The problem, xtisme, is that the theists are given a pass on all of their truly in-your-face tactics, while you blanch at the idea that I actually said ‘I am an atheist’ to a coworker who after telling me a long involved story about his bishop and how he just loves to be involved with the church asked ‘Where do you attend church?’
[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, members of a religious majority do get a pass from a lot of people on things members of a minority wouldn’t. This is because, when a member of the majority does something obnoxious, most people know many other members of the majority who do not do obnoxious things, so it’s obvious to them that not all members of that group are obnoxious. That’s not always the case for members of a minority- there aren’t as many people who are openly atheists living their lives and not bothering anybody to show others that most atheists in fact don’t do things that non-atheists find obnoxious. It’s not fair, it sucks, but judging a group based on the actions of the members of it that you know (even if you don’t know all or even most of them, and the ones you know might not be representative) is unfortunately part of human nature.

That said, I don’t think saying “I’m an atheist” or even “I’m an atheist, I don’t go to church” is throwing your atheism in anyone’s face. If someone asked me what church I go to or what I’m doing for Christmas, I would say, “I’m Jewish”. I don’t think that counts as throwing my Judaism in anybody’s face, and AFAIK nobody I’ve said it to has thought so, either.

290

[QUOTE=xtisme]
there isn’t any purpose to displaying your atheism
[/QUOTE]

Yes, there is. It’s useful to remind theists that they shouldn’t assume everybody believes in a god, because in fact not everybody does. If people think they don’t know any atheists, they get mistaken ideas (often negative ones) about what atheists are really like, and if no atheists ever come forward, those ideas never get challenged. Having wrong ideas about what atheists or atheism are actually like is ignorance, and we’re against ignorance here.

Obviously, atheists can’t show their atheism in the same way religious believers show their belief (IMO, they shouldn’t try- any attempt is likely to be contrived and show atheism as something it really isn’t, sort of like portraying Hanukkah as “Jewish Christmas” is a distortion of Judaism). But that doesn’t mean they should refrain from expressing their atheism in ways that they can do so. Not participating (or pretending to participate) in religious activities, or saying “I’m an atheist” is a way they can express their atheism that really doesn’t hurt anyone else.

Either the whole area of religious practice is a taboo topic for discussion in public, or none of it is. If religious people are going to openly talk about their church or temple attendance or holiday observance, atheists should be allowed to openly say that they don’t do those things. It’s not fair to say “you can talk in public about the religious practices we like, but not the ones we don’t”. It may be part of human nature to want to let those who agree with us, but not those who don’t, speak publicly, but not everything that is human nature is good, or something that should be encouraged.

291

FTR, it’s much less common for people to assume you’re religious* here in San Diego, and it’s safe to say that everyone here knows plenty of atheists and understands that the group contains people on all parts of the spectrum, just like every other such group; but it would still cause a shitstorm and a half if someone put up a billboard like the one catsix described. For a similar example, next time you’re in San Diego, find a group of several locals and try to debate whether or not the cross on Mt. Soledad should be taken down. Better yet, don’t, because you might think World War III were starting right there on the beach. I recently found myself in such a conversation, with atheists, where I felt like if I voiced my objection to the cross I would have been dodging verbal potshots for weeks.

On a national level, and in societies in general, yes, Anne Neville, I think you’re exactly right. But there must be something else there too–and I think it’s a hefty sense of guilt inherited from the Puritans. JMHO.

*I’m trying not to use “theist” because capital-T “Theist” refers to a specific branch of Christian theology. Which is sort of a metaphor for the whole discussion, really.

292

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
Yes, there is. It’s useful to remind theists that they shouldn’t assume everybody believes in a god, because in fact not everybody does. If people think they don’t know any atheists, they get mistaken ideas (often negative ones) about what atheists are really like, and if no atheists ever come forward, those ideas never get challenged. Having wrong ideas about what atheists or atheism are actually like is ignorance, and we’re against ignorance here.
[/QUOTE]

If you have actually read what I’ve been writing you know that if someone asks you about god or whatever, telling them that you are an atheist/agnostic is exactly WHAT I DO. That isn’t throwing anything in anyone’s face…and it’s a strawman of my position. I’m not saying to hide the fact or run away from it or to stay in the closet about it…I’m saying not to walk around with a chip on your shoulder and throw it in peoples faces. You don’t need to walk around with a shirt on saying “I don’t believe in God…I"m an Atheist!”. You don’t need to get all worked up when religious types put on religious displays, or get all huffy when they start to pray. When I sit down to Christmas/Easter dinner and my family prays I simply sit quietly until they are done…then eat. If anyone asks then I tell them…I don’t believe in prayers, like I don’t believe in religion. I’m an agnostic.

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
Obviously, atheists can’t show their atheism in the same way religious believers show their belief (IMO, they shouldn’t try- any attempt is likely to be contrived and show atheism as something it really isn’t, sort of like portraying Hanukkah as “Jewish Christmas” is a distortion of Judaism). But that doesn’t mean they should refrain from expressing their atheism in ways that they can do so. Not participating (or pretending to participate) in religious activities, or saying “I’m an atheist” is a way they can express their atheism that really doesn’t hurt anyone else.
[/QUOTE]

And if you’ve read what I’ve written you will see that I’m NOT saying to refrain from expressing the fact you are an atheist/agnostic. I’m against useless confrontation by some of my more rabid shoulder chip wearing brethren and sisteren.

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
Either the whole area of religious practice is a taboo topic for discussion in public, or none of it is. If religious people are going to openly talk about their church or temple attendance or holiday observance, atheists should be allowed to openly say that they don’t do those things. It’s not fair to say “you can talk in public about the religious practices we like, but not the ones we don’t”. It may be part of human nature to want to let those who agree with us, but not those who don’t, speak publicly, but not everything that is human nature is good, or something that should be encouraged.
[/QUOTE]

Hopefully by now you realize that this is a mis characterization of my position, and that in fact I’m not saying you can’t talk about being an atheist in public.

-XT

293

[QUOTE=xtisme]
You don’t need to get all worked up when religious types put on religious displays, or get all huffy when they start to pray. When I sit down to Christmas/Easter dinner and my family prays I simply sit quietly until they are done…then eat. If anyone asks then I tell them…I don’t believe in prayers, like I don’t believe in religion. I’m an agnostic.
[/QUOTE]

But AFAIK there aren’t many atheists who get worked up about prayers or religious displays per se. I’ve not heard of many atheists who would have a problem with a church putting up a nativity scene on its property. What they do get upset about is when the government (local, state, federal, or what have you), which is supposed to be strictly neutral in matters of religion, starts putting up nativity scenes. There’s a difference there.

But why shouldn’t atheists do that? Religious people do walk around wearing religious jewelry or T-shirts with religious slogans on them. Some atheist T-shirts might be more offensive than others, just like some religious T-shirts might be, but I don’t think a T-shirt that said “I’m an atheist” would be inherently offensive, any more than one with a cross would be.

294

[QUOTE=xtisme]

And if you’ve read what I’ve written you will see that I’m NOT saying to refrain from expressing the fact you are an atheist/agnostic. I’m against useless confrontation by some of my more rabid shoulder chip wearing brethren and sisteren.

-XT
[/QUOTE]

Do you consider the recent spate of atheist books in your face?
I think a good reason for a billboard would be to make people start to think about their beliefs, and be aware that there is an alternative. It should certainly not be anti-religion, just pro-free thinking. How many theists, living where everyone they know believes at least by default would ever think about these issues? I never did until I ran into an essay on who wrote the Bible in the front of a Bible, of all places.
Would it be in your face to have a billboard saying that Moses did not write the Torah?

295

YMMV. I don’t really see the point in proclaiming to theists that atheists are out there somewhere. I don’t see the point in wearing your atheism like a badge on your chest…who are you trying to impress? What point are you REALLY trying to make with that statement? What is it you want from the theists? Me…I could care less if they acknowledge me and my views or not. I only want them to respect my views enough to leave me alone…and to respect the stance of my country for religious freedom (which includes freedom FROM religion). I am willing to butt heads with the theist types on loopy things like prayer in school or teaching Creationism/ID in our public school system. After that? I want/need nothing from those folks.

But hey…whatever floats your collective boats. If you want to torture theist types to acknowledge you and your view point, if you want to torture them whenever they try and display their religion in a public place (in a majority Christian country)…well, as I said, whatever. Just don’t be surprised when attacking a majority population leads to some kind of backlash.

Me? I’ll pick my fights. If someone asks me I’ll be more than happy to give my views on religion…I’m quite content with my personal philosophy. I don’t NEED to wear a badge proclaiming them…I don’t NEED for the theist types to respect or even acknowledge my personal philosophy (there aren’t a lot of theist types who I respect enough to care what they think of me…but then, that goes for a lot of non-theist types too). I NEED a frickin pony…that’s what I need…

-XT

296

There actually is an atheist/agnostic group putting up billboards- the Freedom from Religion Foundation. They recently put up this one in Atlanta, which is a pretty clearly anti-religious message, and put up one saying “Beware of Dogma” in Madison, WI back in October. I haven’t heard about them getting firebombed or anything like that, and their website doesn’t appear to have been vandalized… Of course, they’re probably doing this in an area where they think they will find people who will sympathize with their message, but everybody who puts anything on a billboard presumably does the same thing.

But how much do we want any religious celebration to be nationally recognized, and how do we decide which ones should be? As an advocate of separation of church and state, I think national (read: government) recognition of a religious holiday shouldn’t be much more than a day or two off work, and maybe a commemorative postage stamp.

297

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
But how much do we want any religious celebration to be nationally recognized, and how do we decide which ones should be?
[/QUOTE]

Well, why exactly should we decide…or even be consulted? We are a minority population. The vast majority (even of non-Christians) WANT the few ‘religious holidays’ (such as Christmas) that we have. To my mind most of them that are celebrated at the national level are more secular than religious these days (I realize theist types don’t see it this way…c’est la vie).

If someday agnostics/atheists make up the majority of the population then I fully expect to see…well, honestly I would guess we will STILL have things like Christmas even so.

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
As an advocate of separation of church and state, I think national (read: government) recognition of a religious holiday shouldn’t be much more than a day or two off work, and maybe a commemorative postage stamp.
[/QUOTE]

The majority of the population currently disagrees with you. And as long as it’s not a major infringement on my rights (read: As long as stuff like Christmas is optional, as long as I don’t have to go to church, etc etc) then I’m fine with that. When it DOES become an infringement (like some atheists, a lot of theist types just have to keep pushing and pushing)…well, THEN I’m fully prepared to butt heads as hard as it takes to get the loony types to back the fuck down. Until then…I live and let live.

-XT

298

If anyone wants to see what REAL religious persecution looks like, here is an interesting story:

At least she wasn’t convicted of showing contempt for religious beliefs or inciting hatred. At a guess everyone in this thread (me included) would probably have been beaten to death with wet noodles for what we’ve said here…

THAT is a challenge.

-XT

299

Ah, the old “you don’t have anything to complain about because somebody is being oppressed in Africa/the Middle East/South Asia” canard rears its ugly head once more.

300

Naw…it’s the NEW ‘you don’t have anything to complain about’ because, frankly…you don’t. Looking at this thread I’m militantly unimpressed by the ‘challenges’ facing atheists in the US. yawn

However, if you don’t want to see what real oppression (and this pretty well watered down…I can imagine what someone who actually lived there would have gotten sentence wise), well, that’s your lookout.

-XT