What atheists think, and why (in re: GEEPERS)

Great Debates
61

That might be possible, but you do not seem to have posted it on this forum. Your claims about religion and the bible tend to be wrong. Your claims about the motivations of anyone who does not share your personal beliefs tend to always be wrong. And now you are demonstrating an unhealthy martyr complex, specifically:

So, you have heard every one of these statements regarding why people do not believe in a god, and you simply choose to refuse to believe them? You are setting yourself up to judge not only the quality of their beliefs but their honesty in expressing them?
Given your own rather dismal record in terms of knowledge and understanding, I am not surprised at this reaction.

I have found, over the years, that fundy attitudes, (whether of believers or non-believers), have made discussions between less rigid believers and non-believers nearly impossible on this board, but it is pretty much the definition of fundies to reject understanding for smugness. It is just unfortunate that such rigid smugness has made discussions of belief less interesting on this board.

62

Hmm, not an Atheist here, although I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying. I am Christian, but only barely, in the sense that I believe in Jesus and what he promises.

I’m not sure who or what he is. He could be extraterrestrial influence for all I know. He could be a myth. I guess I won’t really know until my life is over in this planet (Even then maybe I still won’t if death simply is oblivion).

I am positive though that the Bible does not teach anything about eternal torture. I speak Greek and have spent a while reading the Septuagint, and the Textus Receptus, and there are some horrible mistranslations and misunderstandings of the cultures back then. It’s mostly thanks to the Catholic Church that the concept of eternal torture even exists today. It’s not what the original followers of Christ believed.

63

Because I came to the conclusion that it is more overwhelmingly more likely that there is no god than that there is. The Bible, in the most literal sense, is simply incredible (that is, unbelievable). No other religious documents are more credible.

Syphilis is as wide-spread as superstition, but that doesn’t make it desirable. Science provides answers. Superstition spreads fear. Argumentum ad populum holds no water with me.

Not any one thing, no. It was a gradual process of discovery and awareness.

Since I do not believe there is a god, there is nothing to be angry about. If there was a god, I suppose it would have some explaining to do (e.g. “I apologize for the inconvenience”) but I’m not holding my breath.

Not especially. Although I wish more people would be honest about the endless abhorrent actions that have inevitably been taken in the name of “god”.

Hate? No. I believe religion is misguided and ultimately destructive, but sadly it is all to common a component of human existence. It can lead to good things, but not reliably enough.

Not innately, no. I do think they are misguided, but clearly some very intelligent people are religious.

Of course not! I do hope religion fades away into irrelevance, but that must occur as a natural process of societal development/human evolution.

Separation of church and state, however, is a vital concept to any notion of freedom or liberty. As is freedom of (and from) religion.

I’m an atheist because I do not believe there is a god, not because I desire to not believe in one.

64

It’s the logical default position, even for Christians as regards other deities. I have simply never been confronted by compelling evidence or experiences sufficient to alter that position.

No, that logic is inherently fallacious. [See “argumentum ad populum”] As such, it should be rejected on that grounds.

No. I was raised in a culturally Protestant area and have been both baptised and confirmed, but I never had any form of faith. I left the Norwegian State Church (in which most Norwegians are registered, almost by default) when I turned 16 as a political statement because they receive tax funding proportional to their membership size, but I have no quarrel with the Church, its’ clergy or the people who belong to it. I’ve never had a personally negative experience with Christianity or its’ adherents. (Though many intellectual ones.)

No. Nor am I resentful, embarrassed, ashamed or otherwise emotionally engaged in the subject.

Not on a personal level, no.

Religion - the organized, codified and incorporated structure of faith - is a system of control and conformity. As such it is inherently invested in its’ own continuation and that makes it dangerous, but not necessarily evil. Evil can be carried out in the name and concept of religion, but that does not make religion evil.

I don’t think they apply intellectual rigor to the subject of religion or the validity of their faith, but I don’t think this carries over to any other aspect of their life. I have no qualms about working for, with or employing religious people in important positions or for that matter sitting in government. Norway is actually a bit special about this - our current prime minister is a declared atheist; the last one was a priest.

I think it should be allowed to die out from natural causes. There are no authorities I would trust with the power to actually stamp out or ban religion.

65

I’m entitled to my own opinion, and it remains extremely low of atheists. The rude arrogant treatment I have received on this board has done nothing to persuade me otherwise.

Of course, you could easily prove me wrong by providing one example where an atheist agrees with a Christian. And I’m not talking about a semi-Christian agreeing with atheist statements. I’m talking about an atheist admitting that a Christian has made a valid point in favor of Christian evidence.

You could start by not refering to Christians as “fundies”.

66

Actually you’ve been treated pretty politely. And people aren’t being “arrogant”; you are simply that badly wrong.

In all of human history, no Christian has ever done that. There is no “valid evidence” for Christianity for Christians to show atheists, and there never will be because Christianity is complete nonsense. It’s not the fault of atheists that Christians believe in a pure fantasy.

67

Don’t be so goddamned polite to him, DT. He doesn’t like the tone he’s caught here, so maybe you should stop sugar-coating how you feel.

68

Interesting phenomenon.

In GEEPERS, we are seeing a personification of the religious right in America. The very *existence *of atheists is considered an attack on Christianity, that causes them to scream from the rafters that 80% of the country is being persecuted by the other 20%.

69

You accuse the atheists in this thread of being arrogant, but you have explicitly stated that you have heard their arguments for why they are atheists before, but you simply refuse to believe that these are the real reasons. Can’t you see that your position is arrogant? If you don’t think it is arrogant, can you explain why you think it is not?

For the record, I’m an atheist. I never believed in a god. My family didn’t participate in any religion and I don’t remember ever hearing talk about religion in my house, so I’m not angry at god or trying to upset my parents.

I simply don’t believe in god and to be honest, I don’t think about it all that much, except when I’m on this board, where it comes up a lot.

Do you flat out not believe me?

70

Presumably you’re a mad monk undergoing an atheistic hallucination.

71

Please familiarize yourself 5 and 7! Hell, probably better make it all seven. And admit it already, you’ve got nothing in the form of valid evidence for Christianity, and that’s why you need faith to support it.

72

If you bothered to read my post, you’d have noticed that I’m an atheist who’s married to a practicing Christian. We go to church together. Do you think I don’t agree with my wife on anything?

Can I count as your one example?

73

Presumably that makes her a “semi-Christian agreeing with atheist statements” according to GEEPERS. “Atheist statements” in GEEPERS-speak being anything that does not totally conform to GEEPERS’s particular version of Christianity.

74

I feel like Marley’s intentions couldn’t be more obvious, yet you completely missed his point.

75

True, neither my wife nor I are Scottish.

76

Do you feel as though you’ve been perfectly fair and not rude at all towards atheists?

I’ve agreed with many Christians. I’ll even go a step further and say that I find many arguments for God rational, if you accept their premises (I often don’t). I find some Christians (and theists in general) to be intelligent and very reaonable.

77

Again, none of this is about Christianity in particular. Atheists don’t believe in any gods, they don’t have some special grudge against Jesus. Most of them are irreligious, but that doesn’t make them specifically anti-Christian. Do you not think “religion isn’t evil,” “there is some true stuff in the Bible,” and “religion shouldn’t be suppressed” are points where atheists and religious people can agree? I realize it’s not an overwhelming endorsement of religion, but it’s not nothing.

You’ve never made one as far as I can tell. In particular you keep jumping from “some stuff in the Bible happened” to “the Bible is all true and the evidence for it is as good as the evidence for anything else in history.” The first point is true, and the second is absurd. If you were taking positions that were better supported by science and history - like acknowledging evolution - you would have less of a problem getting atheists to agree with you. You’re not going to get them to agree with you about Biblical literalism (that should’ve been obvious from the beginning) and you won’t get them to agree with you

He was talking about fundamentalist Christians.

78

I haven’t read the threads you’ve been involved in, however, if you’re claiming that the people explaining their thoughts and feelings in the thread are being less than honest that strikes me as being rather rude and arrogant.

I’m not sure what you’re asking for when you say Christian evidence. I certainly agree with a lot of Christians about many of the principles of living that JC taught, and his teachings of our undeniable connection to each other. I agree that the truth has the power to free us, ifwe are willing and able to accpet it. Being a former Christian I believe in the value of love and truth in our lives as individuals and in our progress as a species.

If you’re talking about evidence for the details of Christianity, that Jesus actually lived and taught, died and and back to life, that’s another matter. It’s not rude of arrogant to honestly disagree over evidence that even scholars can’t agree on.

I’m no expert, but it appears to me that there is little solid evidence to support Christian doctrine and traditional beliefs , in fact, if anything, it is Christians who tend to reject pretty solid widely recognized evidence , for the sake of tradition.

That’s not being arrogant or an attack, but an honest appraisal based on my personal readings on the subject. I’m happy to look at any new evidence that comes along.

79

Finally, an honest reply. THen please (addressing atheists in general) stop creating threads and demanding that Christians provide evidence for our deity since you’ll NEVER accept anything we say anyways. That doesn’t make me stupid or wrong 100% of the time. That just means atheists stubbornly refuse to ever consider any pro-Christian evidence much like the way my amazing supernatural natural experiences that I shared was tossed immediately out the window. Insulting to say the least.

Funny how this thread was dying on the vine until I spoke up. This is the typical feeding frenzy.

80

What else do you want atheists (anyone who doesn’t take the Bible literally) to agree with you about? That irreducible complexity is a good argument against evolution? It isn’t. That’s not because you’re a Christian- it’s because it’s a bad argument that was discarded a long time ago. It simply isn’t true that there had to be a guiding hand to evolution. Your arguments for the Bible haven’t been strong either. They’ve mostly been bait and switches: you say lots of Biblical stuff has been proven, people poke holes in it, and you begin making strawman arguments and railing against the unreasonableness of atheists. The problem is that you’re wrong, not that you’re a Christian. We’ve had arguments like this with religious Jews and other people, too.