What Do Men Want? (an outsider ponders male heterosexuality)

In My Humble Opinion
21

I’m curious if that is your aim here in the OP, rather than a dialog.

I counted a number of potential points for discussion in the OP, but these seems to be a dismissive attitude towards anything that “typical males” say.

Why, for example would this occur?

My emphasis.

Why is an explanation of their motives given by a person “babbling on?” How does that differ from your theories which presumably are not “babbling on?” What causes the difference? Is it that they aren’t allowed to answer because they haven’t thought sufficiently for you? Or is it a gender issue? If a “self-identified real man” responds to your OP is he going to be summarily dismissed?

What are the rules for “babbling on” and “writing blogs?” Why is one not allowed but the other encouraged?

I know many men who find a trill in the chase. Why is their explanation of their desires so apparently beneath you? Is this a “wrong” explanation? Is there another answer you require?

Are you dismissive because they are discussing in generalities? But it’s OK when you do.

Is this simply a fight with “self-identified real men?”

22

Who are these people? Are these people renowned experts on men sexuality, or are they just regular people off the street who have an opinion? If it’s the former, why not cite their work so that we understand why they’ve drawn those particular conclusions. This way we can be assured that the simple-minded arguments you attribute to them are fair representations of what they truly believe.

If it’s the latter, why should we assume that these random people you’ve bumped to are representative of any one other than random people you’ve bumped into it? And how many “people” are we talking about? I’m having a hard time believing that every man you’ve met think men are simple and uncomplicated beings who only want sex for sex. I am guessing that not only are there are plenty of “real men” who don’t hold this view, but some may have actually written books and/or blogs. Your OP would really benefit from cites other than your own.

23

I’m a regular straight guy. I’m probably not a regular straight guy.

I have one girlfriend after another. If a relationship worked out I’d stay in it, but it is surprising how these things can fail. I’m dating once again, going the online route because it just seems to make sense to go where all the single-and-looking people are, and while I like bars I don’t seem to like to pick up women at them. I met one future girlfriend at a dance club. I met girlfriends in college, I met them at work, but lately online seems like the way to go. I’m pretty surprised by how popular/successful I am at it, but I think being tall is the root of that.

I was talking to a guy friend of mine about it. He asked what I was looking for. Good question! “Volume” was my instant answer. The plan is to go on a lot of first dates, we’ll see how many 2nd dates, and maybe if I stick with it I will meet somebody I really click with.

One of these girls was pretty exciting. Interesting, funny, hot. But it looks like she is actually getting back with her ex. But she wants to be friends. Like, hang out and do shit, have text conversations, etc. But not date.

This led to a conversation about how I feel different from “regular” guys. I generally make friends with women. I don’t want to hang out with all women, but the people I want to hang out with tend to be women. Not always, not at all, I have been friends with guys all my life, usually nerd guys, but not always those. I’m a nerd guy at heart I think, though I am so physically big and strong that I think that gets overlooked…? I am not 100% sure of how others see me.

Anyway, I tend to just like women, and some of these turn into girlfriends, and some remain pals and I am fine with that. We may practice cooking together, or make cocktails and listen to music, or read things aloud, or watch movies or sports or just talk talk talk, or do errands and favors together or for each other. I’m not so sure regular guys go about it this way- it seems they tend to have guy pals, and a wife. I have guy pals, more girl pals, and a rotating monogamous girlfriend position that is currently vacant, somtimes filled from the ranks of girl pals but also subject to “instant promotion” if the chemistry seems to be there, with the hope that we will turn out to be pals. Sex pals? Not exactly. It overlaps “sex” and “pals” but is more than the sum of parts when it works, and a huge pain when it doesn’t.

I hope that helps. I am not playing a “monogamy game.” I don’t feel androgynous or ambivalent about my gender at all: I’m a straight guy. I was born this way.

(PS I never think of things in terms of who is dominant or submissive or who is playing the “role” of the girl or the guy. It seems there is a power struggle element to dating regardless of how dominant or not one person is, it is just lamer if my partner turns out to be not so capable. I once suggested a girl pal play the role of the “white man” when we hung out, but that was sort of an aside from a conversation we had, and I didn’t think it implied I would be a woman, I think it implied that I am always the white man, though I am not very conscious of or attached to that as a cultural status or point of pride. Top? Bottom? Never look at it like that. Kids? It is an option, though I think people fuck up their lives by deciding they Have To Have Kids, or they Have To Get Married. I may do neither, though if the right person comes along, I may do both.)

24

I’ve dated women. I’ve dated men. I’ve dated men who used to be women. I’ve dated women who used to be men. The one concrete thing I’ve learned is, the amount of stupefying bullshit you have to deal with is neither increased nor decreased by the gender of the person you’re dating. If you’re a dude, dating another dude isn’t suddenly going to make the relationship make more sense, or make it easier to understand your partner, or cut down on the number of truly stupid arguments you get into.

Relationships are hard. People are weird. These are universal truths to everyone, regardless of their gender or sexual orientation.

25

Yeah, that sounds similar to my own experiences. Other than the one-at-a-time nature of your committed relationships, but the whole pattern of seeking both friends and girlfriends from the same general pool and just seeing where things go.

26

I’m poking some fun at them, to be sure. I admit that. And that includes painting their position in such a way as to make it sound particularly silly and to emphasize and exaggerate the inconsistencies.

But there’s a serious point in there. I’m not kidding about the sense that everyone craves the emotionally intense intimacy, and that the whole “men just want sex” thing really does set men up to be “conquered”. So, of course, does the allocated-female dating role of sexual reluctance with regards to having sex. Many women have found the old dating script undignified and dehumanizing; they’ve explained how it works in terms similar to those I’ve used and then said “No way I’m pretending like I’m not just as interested in sex as guys are, fuck this double-standard shit”. I’m doing a similar number on the equivalent portions of the script dealing with the appetite for ongoing intense intimate relationships, which I also find undignified and dehumanizing, and above and beyond taking some pokes at the conventionally portrayed male (hetero)sexuality, I’m saying “this game is stupid and here’s why I don’t play it”.

27

On one hand you talk about how different your gender identity is and how people have difficulty dealing with it, and on the other hand in talking about and analyzing heteronormative male sexuality you haul out these tired, weathered tropes and cliches to frame your analysis. You are not the only one who is special flower. There is a HUGE range of varied preferences and behaviors as to how heterosexual men and women engage dating and mating. If you want respect for your perspective you might start by giving some instead of sounding like an old script from “Love American Style”.

28

Ha, I thought I was more of a contrasting gender normative kind of person. Ah well. :slight_smile:

So do you dress like a girl too? Or is it all behavioral? Me, I never cross dress and I think I act like a guy, if a little awkward sometimes. Hm, I don’t have any tattoos, I don’t wear any jewelry or makeup. It is true that I do not think about these kinds of issues very much, except that my love life does seem a little mixed up.

29

In my experience, you don’t have to “dress” to be girly. It has nothing to do with external gender stuff. I’ve seen guys in full drag who were less girly than bikers.

30

This.

And this.

Has anyone else ever quoted Shodan and Miller approvingly in the same post? I think this may be a SDMB first. :smiley:

31

If someone told you that they don’t crave the emotionally intense intimacy (and in fact find it quite repulsive), do you think this person is delusional? Numb to their own emotional needs? A deviant? A liar?

It seems to me that you of all people would appreciate the fact that generalizations about what “everyone” wants are often wrong. Personally, I find the assertion that everyones craves emotional intimacy to be just as eye-rolly as the assertion that all men want is sex.

32

I choose to wear some items that are not generally worn by guys and are associated with girls and women. It’s more subtle and more compicated than “dress like a girl” because I don’t reject being male and dont wish to present as female, and there’s no fashion trend explicitly for feminine guys. I wear skirts but I don’t wear bras. As panache says, you don’t have to “dress” to be girly; at the same time, in the years before I came out, I was made to feel that how I diddress might be playing a role in me being perceived and treated as I was, that it was my fault for not doing a better job of dressing more masculine, so going out in skirts etc now is symbolic and a little “in your face”, a way of conveying “I am not furtive about being a feminine person, I’m out and proud”. (And because I like skirts, especially in the summer).

33

Heh, good point!

Yes, you’re right of course. It’s yet another generalization and I was bad to use “everyone” and I of all people should know better. Restated, it is my observation that, in general, the guys who do most resemble the stereotype of guys “just wanting sex with as many women as soon and as often as possible” actually also crave an ongoing intimate relationship; and that most of them do not overtly seek it but they become unhappy people if one of the chicks they put the moves on doesn’t do the Hetero Dance with them and slow stuff down as described and become their girlfriend.

I, in contrast, was told that I “try too hard”, that I’m too obviously and pathetically in search of a relationship, and girls won’t respect that, that it comes across as desperate. This, despite me not seeking a relationship any more intensely or desperately than the typical girls my age. Part of my coming out was realizing this disparagement was akin to the way girls get tagged “slut” for being no less reticent about sex than the typical guys their age. I wanted sex, sure, but it was demeaning to go around acting like I just wanted sex, and to beg or pressure girls for sex while they protested that they don’t do casual sex and it has to be someone they care for. Didn’t fit me, clashed very badly with my personality, to try to behave like that.

34

Ok, so you are a girly straight guy, if I’m taking you right.

Around here, I sometimes see guys in toenail polish (sometimes with wife & small kids in tow). The androgyny/metrosexual thing also seems to be more or less taken for granted. To be a girly man does not seem to be thaaaat much of a crazy outlier.

But you’re struggling to find a “manly girl”. Your deviance from standard gender norms is giving you trouble. If it makes you feel better, my conformity to standard gender norms has not been a silver bullet.

I may be losing track of what you’re really going for. Your OP seems to present standard hetero behavior as a crazy kabuki dance, something that doesn’t really make sense, and so you can feel better about your “deviance” because in this light, it is actually a more sensible and clear-eyed approach? Culturally constructed gender roles aren’t terribly well thought out, and unintended consequences appear when put under a microscope? The quest for interpersonal intimacy is doomed because “normal guys” just aren’t into that, and so women aren’t really adapted to it either?

I’m not sure. I can only share my experience, and it is that I have not been someone to go out looking for sex for its own sake. I like women and expect there to be more to it. The “just sex” approach seems to be something younger guys do, but I had my monogamous girlfriend approach when I was young, too. I think there is just more freedom in hanging out with women- if I’m preparing a vegan meal all afternoon with one of my she-pals, there isn’t ever a moment of doubt where we ask ourselves, “Is this gay?” No, if it is a nice way to pass the time, we just have a good time and don’t worry about it.

Now, my nerd guy friends can be sort of amateur philosophers like me, so if a question like that came up I think we’d be comfortable enough to talk through it instead of experiencing a silent sense of violating some expectation or standard. But the range of things we do is narrower, it doesn’t really come up, and Christ almighty, these guys suuuuck at cooking. Hopeless, I tell you!

35

not precisely:

from prev blog post:

36

Are you familiar with Terror Management Theory (TMT)? According to TMT, a lot of human cultural taboos and the ways we view ourselves are a way to separate ourselves from our animal origins and cope with the knowledge of our own deaths. We want to see ourselves as sacred beings and anything that gets in the way of this process causes us anxiety.

Sex is a minefield, especially women’s bodies, which menstruate, lactate, and give birth. People would rather see sex as something special instead of two human animals rutting like dogs, so a whole host of cultural ideas and rules are piled on top to make this more respectable. Marriage, roleplay, or even something like BDSM are highly ritualized ways of dealing with the problem. Or see how often the female body is portrayed in the role of the divine. Men are ashamed of their rational minds being hijacked by their bestial impulses when they’re around women, which leads to things like the madonna/whore dichotomy, or attempts to control female sexuality.

Here are two PDFs that go into more detail, about 20 pages each:

Fleeing the Body: A Terror Management Perspective on the Problem of Human Corporeality (scroll down to “Human Sexuality”)
The Siren’s Call: Terror Management and the Threat of Men’s Sexual Attraction to Women

It’s generally true in biology that males, which produce many cheap sperm, seek out and mate with as many females as possible, which produce a small number of expensive eggs. This is reflected in human behavior as well, with men seeking many more partners and looking for many more outlets for their excess sexual energy compared to women. Men consume pornography, they visit prostitutes and strip clubs, and gay men are more promiscuous than lesbians. I have a meta study somewhere that I’ve cited on this board a couple times that I can’t find right now that went through all sorts of examples showing this to be true, even down to things like priests failing much more than nuns in their vows of chastity.

I would say that men use sex, like women, to seek validation for their social role, whatever that may be.

37

People aren’t being different, complex, and subtle by accident - sexuality is like that because (to those that want it), complexity and subtlety is an important part of the experience.

A bit like the way subtlety and complexity is very prevalent in people’s appetites and desires pertaining to food. You can fill your stomach with boiled potatoes, but most people want something a bit more exciting and nuanced. They’re not doing that to be awkward, and they’re not doing it accidentally - they’re doing it because that’s what tickles their fancy.

Gustatory desires are also analogous to sexual desires in that what delights one person may disgust another - and what bores one person may be a source of deep interest and pleasure to another.

38

Umm, no, not universal truths. (Take that, RTFirefly! :))

Relationships can be hard, and people can be weird. But that doesn’t have to be the case. If you’re in a difficult relationship then maybe it’s time to move on. If the other person seems very weird to you, then same thing.

Relationships and dating can be a fun, exploratory process. You find out more about them, and in the process you find out more about you, and then you find out even more about them, and then you find out even more about you. And so on. If it is too hard or they are too weird then the fit really isn’t there, is it? It might be fun to keep pressing on if they are oh-so-hot, but in the end if you can’t talk and you can’t relate, then it doesn’t matter how nice her tits are, or how pretty she is, or how great her ass is, or how gifted her tongue is.

Sex is sex, and you get your rocks off and you’re happy for a few minutes, but then reality sets in.

What men want, what this man wants, is good sex and intimacy and good conversation and good friendship and love and support and partnership. It’s not for everyone, but it is for me and I’m lucky to have found it. And I found it in the very least likely place, but that’s another story. My wife and I, we enjoy pleasing each other and we enjoy being pleasured. We enjoy each other’s company and we enjoy doing things together and for each other.

As you date, and as you find out more about them and more about you, it certainly helps to be flexible about things. Compromise where you can, and stand firm for what’s important. But you both have to know yourselves well in order to do so.

There are certain gustatory (learned that new word, thanks Mangetout) pleasures that I like but my wife finds too weird, and vice-versa. And so we compromise. I want it, she’s too weirded out by it, and so I don’t press. Compromise.

And it has always been my theory that someone else could come along, any day, and she is more appealing in certain aspects than my wife or girlfriend is. If I focus only on those aspects, then the appeal can get out of hand and become a runaway train. Perspective can be clouded, or lost. But that is being weak. Love is a decision. It isn’t just a feeling. Sometimes you have to make that decision every single day.

39

I have my tastes and standards, like a lot of my fellow men.

I want a strong, independent and reasonably attractive woman, preferably a black woman, who is outgoing and cheerful and likes to work out, just like I do. I love women who are reasonable and willing to listen to a guy, without being too touchy.

Trust is also good when I’m looking to date a woman in a long-term relationship. I don’t want to have any suspicions that she is cheating on me and being unfaithful. I read of a couple who repeatedly checks each other’s phones, with their permission, to make sure no one is cheating on the other. If they feel the need to do that, they don’t really trust each other and shouldn’t be together, because if they did trust one another they wouldn’t feel the need to go through such a process.

Just my two cents.

40

I only know what I want. Peace and quiet, and a decent standard of living.

I have certainly desired sex at various times in my life, preferably provided by a woman I am attracted to. Having never gotten that through most of my life*, I’m not sure if that would have been satiated and changed my desires, or just made me want it even more. That seems to vary from person to person, so I don’t know where I fit.

Companionship, or friendship, would be nice, but unnecessary. I have preferences and tastes that aren’t too narrow, but nobody has ever reciprocated, even from women I don’t like, so that’s that.

A steady income would be amazing, but seems to be bloody hard to hang onto. Respect from my peers would be pleasant, but not a requirement. Some basic consideration as a fellow human being would make me happy, but seems to be rare as hens teeth these days.

So, basically, if the world would just leave me be so I can get some peace, that’d be great, thanks.

*Eventually I did, but it was only over a brief period and was not all that