Shayna is SO right. Human bites are much more dangerous than animal bites, in terms of infection. And if your friend cannot control her child, then you should prevent your own child from being subjected to his violence.
I understand that kids act out, and sometimes biting is part of all that. But your friend is clearly not dealing with this appropriately.
I would hate to lose a friendship too, but you can see your friend without the children being together. Hire a babysitter, have lunch or dinner, and under NO circumstances allow your friend to talk you into SHARING a babysitter.
From what I’ve learned, it’s true that yes, some kids are biters, and they do grow out of it. But Sue has also said that this child hits, and beats his head in to the floor.
If it was just biting, that would be less worrisome. But there’s obviously more to it than that. I think that at the very least, the kids need to be kept apart. I don’t know if counseling is in order for the UVO, but I think his mom needs to have a talk with his pediatrician. He/she may be able to point the mom in the right direction.
Some violent behavior in toddlers is normal–they’re toddlers. They have no self-control, and they don’t know that violent behavior is bad until we tell them. They’re going to push, until they learn what the limits are. But the combination of behaviors in this little boy may be a sign of something more serious. Again, I’d start with the pediatrician and work from there.
If the mother’s not willing to discipline the child, I’d just remove your child from that scene. You have little control over what’s done to the other child, and frankly, this mother needs someone to point out that she’s just dodging her duty as a parent.
I’d deep-six the relationship with UVO’s mom if it means protecting ToddlerNym (TN). This is how my conversation with UVO’s mom would go:
FunkDaddy: “UVO has been kinda aggressive with TN recently… I don’t think it’s a good idea that they play anymore” UVO Mom: “Don’t be silly - he isn’t being aggressive, he’s just a little more rough than TN sometimes. He’ll be good this time.” FD: “I don’t think it’s a good idea.” UVO Mom: “But I can’t just leave him home when we go out - we always share a babysitter!” FunkOMatic: “Sorry… bites are pretty dangerous. Maybe we can go out sometime and leave the hubbies at home with the kids.” UVO Mom: More whining, “Are you saying I’m a bad parent?” (well, yes, you idiot), etc. etc. F-Diddy: Gentle prodding, resigned look, patented Shrug-Plus-Headshake to finish.
She either gets the idea (starts punishing inappropriate behaviour), or she gets huffy and leaves (dropkick to back of head, to show that aggressive actions are wrong and hurtful).
I am not a parent. And this may have been posted previously, but I didn’t have time to peruse the whole thread. However…
When my dad was younger, a neighborhood toddler would bite him. My dad was a nice guy and didn’t retaliate but would come home with bite marks, so my grandparents told him to bite the kid back. One day, my dad did, and the other kid never bit my dad again.
Sue, you do NOT suck! Obviously you are concerned for your daughter or you wouldn’t be this upset or even asking for advice. I just wanted to point out that perhaps your concern for your friend’s feelings might be a bit misplaced, given the circumstances.
Friends come and go in this world. Your daughter will always be your daughter. She needs you more than your friend does. I know you’ll do the right thing because you are a great mom!
Now quit beating yourself up and go give your baby a hug.
And here’s one for you…
{{{Sue}}}
I’m sorry for coming across so strongly. I do that sometimes, in spite of my best intentions.
Good luck in dealing with your friend. I hope she’s the type of woman who will understand and you won’t have to lose her friendship over this.
I don’t know if this is something you want to get in the middle of, Sue, but does anyone else think there’s abuse going on in this household? “Stop crying!” SMACK! Sounds like the kid’s modeling behavior he’s experienced–or observed–at home. Coupled with the mom’s denial, it’s a pretty creepy scenario.
The best one could hope for is that your refusing to gloss this over would give your friend an opportunity to open up. If you are polite but firm that no inappropriate behavior will be tolerated, but are otherwise non-judgmental and don’t pry, hopefully (sic) UVO’s mom will want to maintain the friendship as much as you and will someday feel safe enough to talk openly if she needs to.
And dear lady, you patently do not suck! You’re a concerned mom and a loyal friend.
Well, as the parent of a (formerly) biting, striking out, occasionally head-banging kid, I would say that UVO needs therapy or therapy and meds.
We never did figure out why my son bit. He did not do it for “fun,” but if he got sufficiently angry, he bit. He grew out of that (thankfully) by or before he started school, although he had enough other problems that he wound up going to a special school to get some control.
I haven’t got any good suggestions regarding UVO’s mom because I never had her attitiude. Biting is wrong and apologies and time-outs simply are not sufficient–they are requirted, but they are the first step, not the completion. (And since my son appeared to simply grow out of biting, I don’t have any good suggestions to pass along to prevent it or curtail it.)
If there is a way to suggest that UVO get some counseling, I would make the suggestion. If UVO has been adopted, I will say that he needs counseling, soon. There is something about the break with the birth mother that triggers a lot of strange behaviors: ADHD, for example, occurs in 2.5% - 5% of the population, but occurs in over 80% of adopted kids. With all his other problems (but few “classic” attachment issues), we thought that my son had missed the attachment disorders that plague adopted kids, until we finally hooked up with a psychologist that knew what he was doing and who could point out that my son’s behavior was very much an attachment disorder symptom.
I’m with the people who think that this is a BIG problem…not for you…for UVOMom. You can, at any time, invoke your right to ban UVO from any contact with ToddlerNym in any way you deem appropriate.
But UVUMom should not blithely assume that this is “a phase” to be passed through. Hell the kid is biting his own family.
Therapy for someone or everyone in that family is not an admission of guilt, it’s just a learning process to help their own little family function better in the world.
I have a friend, who has a child that has behaved violently since he was a toddler. Various childcare figures offered various explanations for his behaviour - “just a phase”, then ADD etc, but the truth is he’s just violent. None of the siblings are, the parents are lovely, quiet, peaceful types. The boy, now 9, has been enrolled in a special school that deals with violent pupils and his prospects are good.
I tell this story to make the point that it is never TOO early to address what could become a very big problem for the UVOFamily. So try not to be angry with UVOMom, be worried.
My overwhelming feeling in all of this is “There but for the grace of god go I.” Cranky Jr. isn’t overly aggressive with other kids, but I suspect that might be more a matter of good luck rather than fantastic parenting on my part. I agree with several points that have been made. Some kids are biters or aggressive, and it’s a damnably difficult problem to solve. Yet I also think that it’s too soon to write this kid off as a nutcase with a future of violence ahead of him.
Although biting back has apparently worked for other parents, I don’t think this is a good idea. The toddler books I’ve read say that a toddler can’t associate your biting and the pain he feels with the pain his biting causes others. Plus toddler logic might translate the message to be “It’s okay for ME to bite when I’m pissed at you, but you can’t do the same to others.”
If I were in your shoes, I’d probably take the wussy way out and avoid that friend. If that wasn’t possible, I guess I’d make myself her ally in the attempt to change this kids’ behavior. Say you’re worried about how intense their exchanges get because you want ToddlerNym to enjoy her son as much as you enjoy being with her. I might even lie a little and say Toddler Nyhm has done this too (in the past), and these are some of the things you’ve heard to try… [insert strategies here]. That way you’re working together as parents solving similar problems, as opposed to you seeming judgmental about her rotten kid. True, you end up unfairly impugning sweet little ToddlerNyhm in this scenario, but she’ll never know and if it helps your friend not feel so threatened, well, what’s a little white lie?
I know most toddler books have some advice about biting and aggressive. Arm yourself and then pass it on to her. And I do sympathize. Cranky Jr’s face is really torn up right now because two different kids this week scratched him, deliberately, under his eyes. He looks like he’s been in a knife fight, and I’m not thrilled. But I’m hoping these are isolated incidents.
This is exactly what my husband (the professional manager of people) said when I asked his opinion. Since I trust him explicitly, I’m gonna head that direction.
Voice my fears, say that I don’t want to cut off our (or their) friendship, so I’d love to sit down and help her come up with something that can remedy the situation. Plan a course of action.
Shayna, you really hit home with the abuse stuff. My first husband was abusive and your post made me see that she can’t think something like that is normal, EVER!!! WTF was I thinking letting it go on this long?
FWIW, he’s not adopted and it’s NOT an abusive household, AFAIK. There’s no signs of it at all, and I’m pretty good at reading those signs now. ::wry smile::
When he gets angry, he just lashes out at anything and bites, kicks or hits. This was really the first time TNym has been on the receiving end of a hit, but it was probably the fifth bite over a year period.
I figured it was just a phase because the first few instances were all w/i a period of two months. Now, with the biting of his sister (usually he’s going for his mom, but the baby is in the way) and his mom, it seems as if it’s a habit. He seems to have no concept of WHY it’s wrong, no empathy. Is empathy learned?
I’d like to write more, but I have to go have sex with my husband now…
perhaps he just doesn’t know that getting bit hurts?
I mean, maybe he doesn’t know how much pressure he exerts when he’s biting. you said he didn’t know why it was wrong
so, I think I’d bite him back, personally, but seeing as he’s not your kid, tell you friend (his mom) to bite him.
Sue, I had to jump in here and tell you, You do not suck as a parent.
Empathy is learned, IIRC at about age 3-4, or at least according to the parenting magazines and books. Maybe point out a few things on his level that may help him to understand. Watch a disney movie, say Mulan or Tarzan. Ask him if he thinks it hurt that person/character at an appropriate moment. It may help trigger him considering how others feel. Or ignore me entirely. Hopefully this will pass and you’ll keep your friendship intact. Hug TN for me.
Yep. Little kids are totally self-centered for the first couple of years of their lives. It’s all about them.
They learn the “what” first. Biting=bad. But until they understand the “why,” they’re not going to learn any empathy. They may stop doing it, because they’ve learned that there’s repercussions. But even knowing that biting will get them punished in some way isn’t going to teach them empathy. Once they get the “why” is when they’ll start developing empathy, and they’ll (hopefully) stop doing it not because they’ll get punished, but because they’ve learned that biting hurts other people, and they don’t want to hurt another person.
I think that UVO is probably too young to have any empathy yet (I agree with Tequila on the age 3-4 thing). But he’s certainly old enough to understand that biting is bad, and he’ll get punished for it. My daughter is 4, and while she was never a biter, it’s only just recently that she’s started saying “I’m sorry” when she does something bad or hurts someone accidentally.
One more thing that just occurred to me, Sue. Is UVO possibly still teething? Both of my kids were very late teethers (my daughter didn’t get her first tooth until she was 16 months old, and her molars didn’t start in until she was well past age 2). Just wondering if that may have something to do with the biting.
Nope, he got all his teeth early and has a complete set.
It sounds like our daughters have the same teething schedule going on, TNym has 7 molars that have yet to show up. Is your daughter tall? I’ve heard that the longer it takes to get their teeth, the taller they’ll be. (I heard it from a pediatrician, one that I left!)
The biting sounds like a kid thing to do, but the hitting someone and saying “stop crying” sounds like a learned behavior to me. Gave me the creeps. I would keep the two kids apart. Your child is not a punching bag, or a piece of gum- your child has feelings, and can feel pain.
Please keep the kids apart (at least for a month- that seems like forever to a two year old) until the violent kid behaves.
I’m gonna toss in another POV as the parent of a kid who was violent. Let me add quickly that we always gave him consequences and worked on decreasing the violence. We didn’t bite or hit him to teach him not to hit or bite though. Biting a child is child abuse pure and simple and teaches nothing.
However much of his violence didn’t occur in a vacuum. It was very rare for him just to launch forth into being violent. If I watched the interaction, often I could see why from his POV what he did seemed necessary. What we needed to do was watch him like a hawk and if things began to happen, intervene real quickly to head it off and show him positive behaviours to help him change.
If I were you Sue, I’d ask for your friend’s perspective on what is happening and ask her what she thinks you should do. You’ll either find out that she is not functioning in the real world or you might be able to maintain the friendship and find solutions for both kids. I lost an old friendship in a way I wish had not happened. It just got to the point where her POV was that her kid was just fine whatever her kid did - my kid reacted and he was a POS. We needed to work with both of the kids to get the dynamics right.
It’s a tricky area though - nobody wants to feel like a bad parent and if someone feels attacked then they attack back. In the end it comes down how much you value the friendship and how much she is willing to do to solve the problem. If she sees no problem and says it is a passing phase… well I’d head for the hills myself
Adults should never bite the kid to “teach them a leason”! That sends a terrible message to the kid (as bad as hitting them, for hiting other kids) and does nothing positive. All it teaches them is it’s ok for more powerful people to abuse weaker people.
Lots of kids bite. Lots and lots of them. If you’re working with very young children, that’s one of the first things you are trained to understand. That the kid bites doesn’t mean he has any mental problems, he just hasn’t learned to channel his anger and frustration properly yet. It’s up to adults to watch out for situations that a bite seems likely to occur and to send the message that biting won’t be tolerated.
Here are some links on how to deal with toddler-biters. The first is advice given to the parent of a bitten child. (I think a couple of the links will have to be copied and pasted due to weird addresses)
