Why don’t credit cards have photos on them?
That would eliminate many of these problems.
To all: Yes, I am aware of all these issues (except for the symbol idea, Bearflag, not too bad), but in my frenzied state I wanted to vent rather than type out every rule-of-thumb and common sense-ism.
My point is I’m getting impatient with the securty vs. freedom issue. Everything is getting so particular and must be done in such an exacting manner - all for our own benefit - I can’t help but wonder when we’ll have to get voice-print ID, ocular scans and give blood samples just to verify who were are …
For our own good!
It’s bloody doublespeak!!!
Gorgon, this is NOT a government idea, these are private companies. If they want to ask for a stool sample, I suppose there isn’t anything stopping them. (Well, perhaps not, but you get the idea).
Clint, some credit cards do have pictures.
Gorgon Heapaleapadingdong (is that 25 letters?)–
This is not a security vs. freedom issue. Come now!
When I worked retail, I always compared signatures. It’s easy enough to do subtly. And in quite a few cases the signatures didn’t match. So I would say, “These signatures don’t seem to match. Could you sign again?” Usually it was a case of a customer being distracted or having her arms full of packages, and just scrawling instead of signing. So, when they signed again, more carefully, the signatures matched. No problemo.
But this one time, this guy had his full signature on his card, and just initialed the receipt. So, I asked him to sign his receipt so I could compare signatures. And he totally went off on me, yelling that he was an “American Express Card customer” and didn’t have to put up with that. :rolleyes: I explained that it was for his protection, in case the card was stolen. He said “I wouldn’t let anyone steal my card.” :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I said, “well, you can sign the receipt, or I can cancel this transaction.” He signed. It matched perfectly. But what an ass!
A couple of semi-related points:
1.) Since my first job at a movie theater when I was sixteen, nobody has EVER instructed me to check the receipt signature against the card. I didn’t have a credit card myself, so I had no idea the clerk was supposed to do that until someone complained. He had a damn fit, too. I was quite surprised–nobody I was working with at the time had any idea what the guy was ranting about. The point being that a lot of business just don’t seem to know or care what they’re liable for, and do not train their staff to follow these procedures.
2.) Why does the system wait until the charge has actually been processed to print something for the customer to sign? Seems a bit late now…
If everyone would do what they are supposed to do anyhow, you wouldn’t need to be adding notes, asking for ID, playing games.
My point is I’m getting impatient with the securty vs. freedom issue. Everything is getting so particular and must be done in such an exacting manner - all for our own benefit - I can’t help but wonder when we’ll have to get voice-print ID, ocular scans and give blood samples just to verify who were are …
For our own good!
It’s bloody doublespeak!!!
How is asking the card holder and the retailer to do what the contract says to do the end of the earth?
Not many get caught that way. Stolen cards account for a very small percentage of fraud. We tell the stores if they call to follow their policy and call security - we don’t want to put the merchant at any risk. The big fraud is in other areas - stolen numbers, identity theft variations, mail theft and counterfeit cards.
catsix, sugarbritches, a little FYI. The cardmember agreement is a legally binding contract. You didn’t have to pay in this case, great. However, banks can and will uphold the $50 liability. You either would pay it or go delinquent. Since you agreed to the account terms, you have zero legal recourse. As long as the bank complies with federal regulations, you’re SOL. I’ve re-billed people before for not following the cardmember agreement and I’ll do it again.
Retail worker, checking in.
I work in the hardware department of a large department store (rhymes with “Ears”). If the back of the card isn’t signed, I ask for ID and suggest that the cardholder write “see ID” or similar in the space. If the back of the card says “see ID” or similar, I’ll ask for ID every time. Same goes for if the signature is overly smudged or rubbed away. However, the only time I check the ID on a signed card, is if someone comes up with a cart-load of stuff that totals, say, over $150, 'cause apparently that’s fraud potential. So… yeah. I’ve also never had anyone bitch about showing ID - in fact, most people will thank me.
Since the merchant is forbidden (by their merchant agreement with their bank-processor) to require ID for credit card transactions. The merchant wouldn’t be doing that they are supposed to do.
Were I your supposed cashier, I would not ask you for ID if your card was signed. If your signatures didn’t match, I’d cancel the sale, probably giving you a second chance. If your card was unsigned, I’d finish the sale after you signed your card, and also showed ID (it’s silly, but AFAIK those are the rules). If your card number was in the fraud book or the terminal came back with a “call center” code, I phone the center. If your card just says SEE ID in block letters and the sales slip doesn’t have SEE ID in the signature panel, I cancel the sale.
If you are angry with me because I finished the sale when your signature matched and I didn’t ask you for your ID like it says to on your card, the return desk and my supervisor are right over there. Next.
(no longer addressing guy_from_wpa, now addressing the teeming billions):
On the subject of signatures, if a blank card is stolen and the thief signs it, then when the credit card company wises to the theft, the retailer who keeps the card has something special. Evidence of Forgery - a felony. Rarely can the retailer retain the “fake id” used if a card which says “SEE ID” on it is stolen.
True, there is Evidence of Forgery in the (either expertly or badly) signed sales slip as well. But, if there is fraud and a hundred sales slips from a hundred businesses are in doubt, the fact that there is no signature on the recovered forged card can make it hard to keep the businesses that are supposed to be checking the signatures on the card against the charge slips honest, since the business are on the hook if they don’t match.
hardygrrl am I way off base on any of this?
-AmbushBug
Not that much 
I’ve never heard of a store retaining the stolen card unless they have called us to confirm it’s a hot card. It’s just a lot easier to hand it back and not risk it.
The fact of the matter is that many merchants rank sales above security. Just like banks do, merchants budget for fraud loss and chargebacks. Think of every store that doesn’t check signatures, that has the self-swipe terminals. Sales over security.
I have a Credit Card which says: Ask for ID under my signature.
I think that maybe 1 time out of 10 people ask for my ID.
Half the time I sign on an electronic pad, the signature comes out all pixalated anyway.
The real worries, as far as I am concerened are not credit cards. This is mainly because of points people have brought upin regards to the 50 dollar max payment thing.
The big nightmare is a check book.
My husband’s co-worker wasn’t paying attention and left her purse in the shopping cart. She didn’t realize this until she was ready to go home.When she went back, it was gone. She drove home, called her credit card companies. She then called her bank.
By the time the checking account was closed, this person already went to 2 walmarts and purchased approximatly 700 dollars of stuff.
The person has gone on to several other walmarts. Since her account is closed, she is not liable for these purchases. She does however, have to write letters contesting the purchases. She is still getting “please pay” letters from Walmarts across the area (Texas, Oklahoma and Arkansas).
It has been, in short, a complete nightmare for her.
The credit cards were the easiest thing to take care of.
A quote in a quote:
quote:
Originally posted by guy_from_wpa
So you put on YOUR card, ask for ID, and then don’t show it?
I put that suggestion there for people who are hell bent on playing games.
Let me repeat it again:
If everyone would do what they are supposed to do anyhow, you wouldn’t need to be adding notes, asking for ID, playing games.
AmbushBug wrote:
Since the merchant is forbidden (by their merchant agreement with their bank-processor) to require ID for credit card transactions. The merchant wouldn’t be doing that they are supposed to do.
Were I your supposed cashier, I would not ask you for ID if your card was signed. If your signatures didn’t match, I’d cancel the sale, probably giving you a second chance. If your card was unsigned, I’d finish the sale after you signed your card, and also showed ID (it’s silly, but AFAIK those are the rules). If your card number was in the fraud book or the terminal came back with a “call center” code, I phone the center. If your card just says SEE ID in block letters and the sales slip doesn’t have SEE ID in the signature panel, I cancel the sale.
If you are angry with me because I finished the sale when your signature matched and I didn’t ask you for your ID like it says to on your card, the return desk and my supervisor are right over there. Next.
(no longer addressing guy_from_wpa)
Some customers have gotten pissed off at us for not doing this (checking for ID when they have signed the card and put on “Ask for ID”). We try to make everyone happy. But otherwise, you have the drill down correctly.
hardygrrl wrote:
I’ve never heard of a store retaining the stolen card unless they have called us to confirm it’s a hot card.
The only time anyone would know to retain a card would be if the confirmation message would be either “Call Center” or “Retain Card”. One of the big stores I managed, can’t remember which, had the policy that if we got that message, that we had to tell the customer the credit card company has asked us to retain the card, and is that all right with you? Apparently out of safety’s sake for the cashier. There also used to be a $50 reward if we retained a card (when directed by the credit card people), but our chain did not allow us to accept anything from our “vendors”, so we had absolutely no incentive to retain the cards.
Just so everyone knows, when a card is declined, the cashier has no idea why. There is no code or hint on why. The customer has to call the credit card company and find out. The retailer has no access to this type of information.
The big nightmare is a check book.
Don’t even get me started on checks! Thank God I don’t live in Jersey anymore and have to be witness at Municiple Court with the bad checks.
Yet another merchant chiming in. We recently received a notice from NOVUS (Discover) telling us that if the card is not signed (including the ubiquitous “See ID” or “C.I.D.”) we are to ask for TWO photo ID’s with signature and have the customer sign the card in front of us before returning the card to them.
As to comparing signatures, a couple of tricks that 15 years in retail have taught me.
1). When someone signs their own signature, they do it almost unconsciously. Signing someone else’s signature will have some hesitation–even with practice.
2) Although your signature may change from signing to signing, enough parts of the signature are usually legible and relatively identical each and every time.
3) If you are not the named person on the card, I am not going to accept it. (We had received a warning from the bank about a nasty divorce where the husband had taken all of the wife’s credit cards and was charging thru the roof to put her deeply in debt so that she could not afford an attorney)
4) Not signing a Card is stupid. For most of the reasons previously mentioned. But not signing a Debit card is the worst. A stolen Debit card can empty out your checking account (as previously noted). Sure you will EVENTUALLY get your money back but it may take months or years to clear it up. (I had an unauthorized debit from my business account from a bank that I have never had any dealings with. It took 45 days to get it cleared up. But moreso, it took 15 to 20 trips to the bank, and about 40 phone calls of 30 to 90 minutes each to get it cleared up)
Just to provide a detailed account of why we do what we do in our store. We have only had one (1) chargeback in 15 years.
mapsmith
I’ll also chime in that (a) I write “PLEASE ASK FOR ID” in the signature space; and (b) the ONLY place that has ever questioned this was the post office, whereupon I wrote my signature in what little space was left over.
Odd.
Esprix
I’m just gonna add here that people who write “ASK FOR ID” on their credit cards, rather than their signature, strike me as peculiarly paranoid and ridiculous. (Being a bartender who gets A LOT of credit cards.)
Credit card companies are insured for just this type of situation; the consumer will not have to pay for any unauthorized purchases because their credit issuer is insured against fraud.
And I think these “ASK FOR ID” people are “asking” the wrong fucking person. Here’s the deal: I don’t work for credit card companies. I really don’t care about their liability. I am not on their payroll and they don’t pay me to be a watchdog. Unauthorized purchases on credit cards are, frankly, the last thing I’m worrying about on a busy Saturday night.
I’ve argued this with people over the bar who get all pissed off when I don’t ask for their ID, and they’ve never been able to answer my only question: WHY AM I IN CHARGE OF SAFEGUARDING THEIR CREDIT? If they’re that paranoid, why don’t they carry cash? Why do they go out at all? Why is Visa/Mastercard’s liability my problem? As long as the damn card goes through, I don’t care who pays the final bill! Why should I? I’m not the one breaking the law.
The only time I pause and consider a credit card transaction is when the card comes up asking for an authorization number or some other phone-in option. This usually means two things:
a.) The holder of the card has been making an unusual number of purchases on that card that day, meaning that the credit card company thinks it might be stolen and is checking to make sure, or…
b.) The card, for whatever reason, is no longer authorized, and the credit card company wants the merchant, i.e., me, to keep it. “Acquire card” is the phrase. (They’ll actually pay you for keeping a card that comes up on the system saying this.) This is when I am responsible for that card; this is the only time my liability comes into play. If the credit card company made it that difficult to use a card, half the merchants in business would no longer accept them. Credit cards need merchants to accept these cards. That is why they are insured!
Beyond that, it is the cardholder’s responsibility to make sure that if their wallet/cards get stolen, they cancel them ASAP; it’s pretty sad if you’re relying on the $6.00 clerk to be on the frontlines of your credit liability. I have handled dozens upon dozens of credit cards on a single given night; if it were up to me to make sure signatures matched, and to check ID’s, and to ensure Visa’s safety on every front, I’d never have time to make a damn drink.
I didn’t read the whole post but LindyHopper the name on front of the card does NOT have to match the signature. An authorized user of a card may get (depending on the CC company) a card with the account holders name on it. The authorized user signs the back.
In other words, I find your unsigned card with Lindahopper on the front, I sign it Kanicbird - presto - I now appear to a merchant to be an authorized user of yoru card.
Read the contract. When you sign the contract with the credit card issuer you agree to abide by some rules they set as they consider fraud is best prevented and handled and you are supposed to abide by those rules because you agreed to that. When you signed the credit card agreement you were not made a member of the board of directors of the credit card company and given the right to change the rules. Really. Read the contract. And if you don’t like the terms then you should not have signed it. The credit card contract works pretty much like any other contract. You are supposed to do what you said you would do. Quite simple. Really.
Thank you. As I posted before, the cardmember agreement is legally binding. If you choose not to follow the terms, the account can be closed.
mapsmith - Right on the money about signatures. I can sign my name in two seconds. No matter how fast I scrawl, certain parts stay the same.
Originally posted by Audrey Levins
The “a” scenario is a security check. It’s not always based on number of purchases. There are several parameters that can flag the account for review. I’ve caught a lot of fraud on these calls.
The “b” scenario has been phased out at most banks. It puts the merchant in potential danger to have to confiscate the card. Either the card is approved, declined or referred - the call the bank for approval scenario.
hardygrrl–a question
The gas pumps that take credit cards, but don’t require signatures. If a stolen card is used, who eats the chargeback?
For the Big retailers (Walmart, Target, et al.) that use a customer swiper at the register, who eats the chargebacks? I have yet to see one WalMart cashier verify a card that a customer has swiped.
Thanks
In both cases, the merchant. Violate the guidelines and eat the chargeback.