:rolleyes: Of course anyone can answer. The same is true in my baseball analogy.
But asking someone a question about some attribute of God does kind of imply that you believe that person believes in God. And asking someone a question about baseball implies that you believe they care about baseball. There may be no explicit statement to the effect that this thread is directed toward theists or baseball fans; it’s implicit in the language, and in the very act of asking that sort of question.
Sorry, RTF, but I don’t think so – especially in this case.
You’ll see in my message to you there was also a note to FoG about his question regarding whether people think God is mean, etc. I think this is the key. The way I saw this question was not simply coming out of the blue, but in relation to our earlier threads in which some of us said that FoG’s God, as he had represented him, was a petty tyrant, etc. Thus, I strongly suspected that he wanted to ask this question because, at least in part, of those messages. Maybe I was wrong, but that’s the impression I got (further bolstered by his follow-up, as I noted). So it was important for him to understand that our concept of God is, well, “null.” I do not really think that a petty tyrant of a God exists – that was just the way he was portraying God in his messages.
Does that explain it better?
As far as everybody else, I cannot answer for them. But even if I had not thought what I thought about FoG’s reasons, I may still have answered. Why? Because he asked for an opinion, and this is certainly the place to share opinions about religion! 
I gotta go with David, here, RT; if you’re familiar with the Christianity and Love thread, FoG first mentioned this thread concept because he thought some of us unbelievers thought God was evil (actually, we just weren’t very impressed with his God). The point of this thread seems to me to be witnessing, and an attempt to reach out to us little lost atheistic lambs in particular. Given that, I think he’d be rather disappointed if we didn’t show up, and I personally find it impossible to answer questions about what I think God’s personality is like–it’s like asking me whether the invisble faeries that live in your toilet have blue wings or green. Given that FoG apparently: 1) wants to convert atheists and is digging for the right approach to do so and 2) has some misconceptions about how atheists regard God, I think the comments made were appropriate. If FoG had specifically directed it towards believers and was genuinely curious about how these other belivers thought of God’s personality, I could see a “God doesn’t exist” response as being somewhat tacky; but on the other hand, occasional posts questioning the entire underlying premises of an OP are not at all uncommon in GD.
Well, I answered this in replying to another thread, but the three characteristics I see as paramount are agapetic love, a passion for justice incorporating mercy and compassion, and a delightful sense of irony. I could go on at length about any of these, but won’t. ( :::Entire board heaves sighs of relief::: )
Gaudere and David, I take your points. But while Friend and I believe in the same God, we come at our understanding of Him from far different points of view. And I think it would be quite within the spirit of the thread to suggest that atheists, having said “nonexistent” or the equivalent to the OP question, go on to allow his and my views of God for the sake of argument, and characterize the God of whom we speak. And I think in that way Friend will get the results I believe he was looking for: what do we understand God as, and if we reject Him as nonexistent, what are the criteria we assume of this God that makes him nonexistent? (Nobody can disprove an ultra-deist god, because he “threw the ‘on’ switch and left.”)
I don’t assume anything about God that makes Him nonexistent; I just think He is highly, highly, highly improbable. I have no single concept of God to lack belief in; I lack belief equally in an evil God, indifferent God, good God, funny God, 3-in-1 God, deist God, singular God, pagan God, Me as God, semi-omnipotent God…you get the picture. I have a concept of God for each poster whose God I am familiar with, as well as ones I make up on my own. I can tell you what I think of the personality of any particular person’s concept of God, but I simply cannot tell you what I think of God’s personality. My concept of God has includes every single concept of God that anyone has ever had, plus any that no one has thought of yet.
Poly’s God is nice enough; more personal and yet more separate than Lib’s God, less inherently incomprehensible than Chaim’s God. I don’t agree with some of the things Poly’s God did/does, but there’s always “mysterious ways”. Also, I rather wish God, period, was simply content to unambigiously exist and love and let humans decide whether or not He is worthy of worship of their own free will, instead of requiring a leap of faith for simple belief in His existence. It is silly to make a belief in something’s actual existence a moral choice with varying degrees of consequences; that’s like making believing China exists a moral choice.
I don’t really like FoG’s God, since He says He loves me but will cheerfully let me suffer eternally since I have not had sufficient evidence to think He exists. Besides, He doesn’t make any sense, given what FoG says about his attributes. Actually, I think the whole substitutionary sacrifice thing is freakin’ bizarre, and find the Jewish God more practical and sensible (although lacking some of the neato-cool mysticism that Christianity can have). Of course, in among the sensible Jewish rules are some ones that make no sense to me, but, well, Mysterious Ways and all.
Oh, Gaudere! Do me! Do me, please! :eek:
how about a Vulcan female with a sense of humor?
Dal TimgarIf I had a nickle for every time a guy said that to me…
OK. Your God seems to be a consciousness permeating everything in the universe. I say He’s less personal because He doesn’t seem to be a separate entity in the manner of a friend you could call up on the phone; He’s a part of you, as He is a part of everything in the universe. But of course, that also makes Him completely personal. He is more abstract in this way than Poly or Chaim’s God; they visualize God as more of a separate being, which makes it easier for me to get a concept of their God. I rather like Him, but the continued emphasis that life is not in the atoms makes me a wee bit nervous; I am rather fond of my atoms, and when people start saying they’re not important I become worried that they will do something to disassemble them from their current state or at least not care terribly much if someone/thing else does. Your God is less malleable and accommodating than Poly’s; your God has one Right Way and Poly’s tends to be less rigorous, allowing humans to muddle though as best they can given their varying circumstances and goals and imperfections. Your God reminds me very much of Joseph Campbell’s description of God, and in fact this morning I had intended to see if I could dig up some quotes from one of my Campbell books to show to you (I forgot, but there’s always the 'net). Here’s one, f’rinstance: “When you see that God is the creation, and that you are a creature, you realize that God is within you, and in the man or woman with whom you are talking, as well…There are two ways of thinking “I am God.” If you think, “I here, in my physical presence and in my temporal character, am God,” then you are mad and have short-circuited the experience. You are God, but not in your ego, but in your deepest being, where you are at one with the non-dual transcendent.” Sound familiar? 
You and he have some differences, of course, but I see a lot of agreement too.
Hmmm, I guess. But it all sounds so disquietingly pantheistic. He is not a part of everything in the universe. In fact, He is not a part of anything in the universe. The universe is made of atoms. God is Spirit. Just like the real me and the real you.
Don’t worry about your atoms being endangered because they are unimportant. They aren’t unimportant. They’re simply not real, not the way Spirit is. They are temporal; the Spirit is eternal. They are a context for us to play out our morality. Believe me, I would treat your atoms with the utmost respect and courtesy. If they were a guest in our home, I would see to their every comfort.
Now, for what it’s worth…
It is kind of odd to see this topic posted, as I had a conversation with my mother on it just a few days ago. Bear in mind, my mother is a very religious Jew, so when I told her my feelings, I was EXTREMELY surprised to find that she agreed with me.
This “God” character in the Bible (by which I mean the Old Testament. I don’t believe he showed up in the sequel) was, by all accounts, a bit of a shmuck.
Look at the evidence. Adam and Eve. He puts them in a garden with no rules except “don’t eat this one fruit, 'cos then you’ll know right from wrong.” This strikes me as a catch-22 of major proportions.
The dice were loaded.
So they ate the fruit, got banished. Had kids.
Cain.
Abel.
Abel was a farmer, and gave God fruits and grains.
Cain was a shepherd, and gave God meat.
Apparently, this was during an interesting phase God was going through. God as a vegan. I can’t picture it. Fortunately, he decided to be carnivorous again when the temple was built. Too late for Cain.
So Cain got jealous, because his sacrifices were rejected by God. No reason, just rejected.
He killed his spoiled brat of a brother, who was probably taunting him. Hell, anyone who has a younger brother can sympathise. But not God.
Fast forward with me if you will…
…to the time of Noah.
People were living contrary to rules that WEREN’T POSTED (Kind of like a game of Calvinball…the rules are made up as you go along). So God decides, “Oh, screw 'em!” And drowns every last one of them, with the exception of Noah, his wife and 3 sons and their wives. Was Noah a good man? Or did he just with the Ark lottery? We’re not told.
Fast Forward again…
…to Abraham.
The only man who knows of God’s existence. So what does God do?
“I can’t tell if you really believe in me, so to prove it, you have to kill your son.”
Is it just my imagination, or is this a cruel joke?
Sure enough, “PSYCHE!”
Manipulative bastard.
Let’s quickly gloss over the 400 years that his chosen people were enslaved.
And the long trek through the desert.
And Moses’ not being allowed to enter the Promised Land because…he hit a rock.
To be fair, it wasn’t just any rock, it was a rock from which water would spring forth. But apparently, he was just supposed to ASK for the water.
He died on the mountaintop overlooking Canaan. Why? A little theatrical inspiration.
Well, okay, I don’t like cheap theatrics much myself, but let the punishment suit the crime.
Okay, final point: Job.
Job was a good man, healthy, rich, blessed with a good family, and very devout.
“Sure he’s devout,” Says the devil. “He has everything!”
“Okay,” says God. “Well, Let’s make a little bet.”
A BET? God betting with the devil? Say it ain’t so!
God kills Job’s family and livestock, destroys his wealth, makes him fall ill.
No reason, remember, this is just a friendly wager with…could it be…SATAN???
But Job’s faith never falters.
Sucker.
Eventually, homeless, alone, a broken man, Job has the audacity to ask God why his life has been destroyed.
God’s response:
“Shut the F*** up. Don’t you know who I am? I can do whatever the hell I want to, and you have NO right to complain.”
So I paraphrased a little. Sue me.
All in all, God is a manipulative, power-crazed sadistic hypocrite.
Dammit, I hold my friends to higher standards. And this is an all-powerful deity? I doubt it.
You know, having grown up Jewish, I always wondered about his treatment of the Chosen people. How would he treat the ones he DIDN’T like? I shudder just thinking about it.
All I know is, I wouldn’t invite Him over to watch the game and knock back a few beers. He’d zap me if I rooted for the wrong team.
As long as we are talking about this, what is your opinion on animals? Do they have spirits too?
So is your God a fundamental Reality? I think we are using a different definition of universe; for me I was using it to mean “all there is” (probably the wrong term in this instance), which would naturally include God. Since part of “all there is” is God and part of it is atoms, God is part of the universe. What do you think our spirits do before and after we enbody (or are they not “in” time)? What part of us is the Spirit (God) and what part is our mind? If the Spirit determines our moral choices, how can they ever be immoral choices if the Spirit is God? If our mind makes our moral choices, how can this world help us to play out our Spirit’s morality? Wouldn’t the Spirit be inherently moral, and the only thing determining morality would be the mind’s choice to follow it or not?
Oh i dont know, Libertarians god always make me think of The Force.
As for the other(s)I’ve tried to put a personality to this before and can’t.
Campbell’s ideas were actually the inspiration for a lot of Star Wars; the hero’s journey, the Force, etc. So it’s not surprising that if Campbell’s ideas remind me of Lib’s God, that the Force would remind you of his God too.
Actually, Lucas attributes the idea of the Force to Carlos Castaneda.
stuffinb
[…wince…]
Gaudere
Great questions!
Well, no. There are no spirits. There is only Spirit. Spirit is dimensionless. (Note that I have come to comprehend that while here at Straight Dope.)
Yes. He is the Absolute Metaphysic. He is the only Real Entity.
Oh, okay! I use universe to mean that which came out of the Big Bang.
The latter. I think. If I understand what you mean. Each of us is born to pursue our own unique moral course, but each imbued with the same Holy Spirit. God Himself dwells in us. I do believe that God is a Person, but a Person of a different kind, spiritual in nature, rather than natural in nature.
The Spirit is our heart (or essence); the mind is our brain. Our longings are our Spirit; our enforcements are our minds.
I am reminded of how Freudian psychology was explained to me: the Id alerts you that there is urine in your bladder, and couldn’t care less whether you die form it; the Ego alerts you that you need to empty your bladder; and the Super-Ego tells you to empty it in a toilet.
Because he gave us free and clear title to do with His Spirit whatever we wish, including dragging it through the mud and killing it.
Our minds make only motor choices once our Spirit has made its moral one.
Oh, dear, no! We are free to despoil God’s Spirit within us, and, as you know, we often do.
I hope your head isn’t spinning, but if it is, consider this: what identifies us spiritually is our moral reference frame, analogous to what identifies us physically (our consciousness, an amoral reference frame). Yes, there is One Spirit, but each of us, as a manifestation of it, is unique. You can’t say of Spirit, “it is here” or “it is there”. It simply is.
Remember, think ablatively!
All this tells me is that, as humans have always done when society shifted, the definitions of God and what we expected from Him (Yes, what WE expected of HIM, not the other way around) changed.
Ultimately, everyone gets the God they want. No, sctatch that - too subjective. Everyone gets the God they NEED.
Yer pal,
Satan
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Three months, three weeks, one day, 19 hours, 7 minutes and 38 seconds.
4551 cigarettes not smoked, saving $568.98.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 15 minutes.
BTW, Libertarian I hope you didn’t take that as an insult, I always thought the Force was pretty cool. Makes as much sense as most of the others too!
OOC, what’s your view on evil?
Well, Lib., I’d much prefer thinking ablatively to thinking accusatively, as some of our more conservative colleagues tend to do! But I tend to be genitive or locative in my thoughts, to continue your declensive metaphor – He is my God, or we are in Him. This system of thinking, however, is nothing but confusing to those who are not dealing with the intrusion of the Spirit into their lives, so I do tend to downplay it on this board, where the discoursers are taken from a broader range of people. (Poly’s rule of good posting: “Read your post from the point of view of somebody else. If it makes sense, post it; if not, change it until it does.”)
Gaudere, one of my wife’s prime contributions to my understanding of the divine plan is the phrase, “Follow your bliss.” And I tend to read the Bible with the point of view that much of it has to be read as legend-with-a-point. So Lib. and I are not quite so far apart as you might think – while he focuses on the metaphysical aspects of the God we share, I focus on the nitty-gritty human-relationship ones. But we both see the same God in each other’s posts. (And I’ll bet that confused the heck out of you!!) 
Well, do you think Spirit is in animals or not?
What drags the Spirit through the mud? If the Spirit is our longings, what longs to harm it? If the mind cannot make moral choices, what chooses to harm the Spirit?
You’re right. I justify my comment by saying that there was a lot of stuff thrown in the Star Wars blender, and Campbell was a big part of it; The Force has strong parallels in Campbell’s writings so I think a bit of his ideas went into it too.
Is it just me, or did that impressive rant on the nature of JHWH reverse the roles of Cain and Abel?
BTW, Lib, if you’re fielding spirit questions:
Does spirit exist in time? If so, does it change? If so, what form did it have before time existed and what form will it have after time ceases? Will it still be able to change when no time exists?