Fair 'nuff, Poly, but I don’t think that addresses the overall point, which is Satan’s statement that saying “God is X” limits God and makes Him non-omnipotent. “God loves me” is not a statment necessarily inherent in the very defintion of “love” in the same manner that if “Good” is defined as “what God is” then God is good. Nevertheless, I feel that if an omnipotent God–who certainly chould choose not to love FoG–does in fact choose to love FoG and FoG says so, FoG is simply describing God, not limiting Him.
Well, that clarified quite a bit!
Actually, in the natural reference frame, as Spiritus keeps pointing out, the decision isn’t made until the decision is made. But in an eternal reference frame, the decision spans the whole continuum.
You’ve heard this story, I’m sure:
[/quote]
"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
"‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
“Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.”
— Matthew 21:28-31
[/quote]
That which treasures evil becomes evil (naturally) or is evil (spiritually).
As long as you think of independence in the sense of Websters 1a (independent: “not subject to control by others”), we’ll be okay. But we must avoid 3b (independent: “neither deducible from nor incompatible with another statement”).
Dead spirit isn’t God. Dead spirit is irrelevant. It’s dead. Not in a biological sense, but in a real sense.
I have no time to really post any response at the moment, but I will have more time later this weekend. Interesting posts all around, as usual.
A brief comment just to give you guys something fun to debate … God will never contradict the Bible. If I hear God say something that seems to contradict the Bible, then one of two things are possible:
- I think I’m hearing God but I’m not.
- I misunderstand the message of the Bible. If this one
is true, I’d be foolish to go with what I thought God
was saying until I could clearly see in the Bible where
my interpretation was wrong. Why? Because possibility1 looms large. The Bible, as I’ve said before, are
the “stripes on the road”.
More later, but that’s all I have time for now …
I picture him like the Jack in the Box guy, but without the hat and pointy nose - just a big, round, smiling head with a nice 3-piece suit.
I still don’t see it. The word decision implies a change of state. It makes no sense to apply it in a context which is declared to be eternal. You might speak of “volition” or “goal” or “desire”, but decision is nonsensical without sequence. There must be a state – there must be either a change in volition or a reaffirmation of a course – there must be a succeeding state.
For that matter, I thought your hypothetical hyerdimensionality did not experience a flow of time (sequence). If so, then what possible meaning can “eternal” have?
Yet, if I have understood you correctly, it need not stay that way. “spirit” can become separated from “Spirit”. I think one thing I may be confused about is what relationship you see between a spirit and a consciousness. When a human being is inspired, for instance, does the spirit exert any influence on teh consciousness? Does the consciousness exert influence on teh spirit? Since this spirit can be removed from Spirit, at what point does it lose its eternal nature?
Ah, back to numbers, but I’m not sure where the idea of relative size enters the picture. My points had to do with closure. After you remove a point from [0,1] you have the same “number” of points, but you no longer have a line segment. You have two line segments separated by a discontinuity.
Just an observation, but I note that you again choose to express this idea using an epistemology associated with rationality. It is equally true of love, faith, and solipsism.
Y’know, I’m going to be seriously peeved if, unbeknowst to my conciousness, my Spirit has decided to be evil. I mean, sure, I’m starting out OK, but I could “already” have chosen evil. If a person who starts out good and turns evil is eternally evil, I might be evil and there’s diddley-squat “I-as-I-post-to-this-MB” can do about it.
If it is eternally evil, what was it doing being part of God?
Spiritus
Well, if the analogy does not assist our mutual understanding, then there is no sense in pursuing it.
(Note: that does not mean I won’t use the analogy with others, besides you, as a means to facilitate understanding, so if you see that is the case, please refrain from rehashing your points, since the other person who is not you might be able to reconcile any perceived anomalies in his or her own mind.)
Oh, I think I’ve said numerous times that a scriptural epistemology begs the question. (The Bible is right because the Bible says that it is right.)
Gaudere
Boy! You sure do a lot of phase shifting! Jumping from metaphysic to metaphysic, let’s see, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight… Did I miss any? You still think you are your atoms. And you still think there is some meaningful difference between today and tomorrow.
Didn’t you know, Gaudere? All of this is already finished.
But that’s what being God is all about! Knowing the difference between good and evil, and making a choice between them. Even the serpant knew that. 
You seem to have no problem accepting that your cells, which are metaphorically dying are part of the metaphorical you.
FriendofGod posted:
Brian!? Expect an ice storm in Raleighwood soon! 
My understanding of the Yaweh of the Old Testament is that of being incomprehensible, or unknowable to humans. I’m thinking that any personality traits a person finds in that god are possibly projections of her/his personality onto her/his deity, or projections of an important parental figure’s personality, or maybe projections of what one hopes or fears her/his god would be like.
But then, according to the New Testament, this god sends a son, who is this god’s personification. So maybe that is what the personality of the god of the Bible is like: like that of the Jesus Christ described in the New Testament.
I personally will not look in the Bible to find my own answers about god/s and spirituality. I think that many of the things described in the Bible done by that God are horrendous, and they scare me. And I don’t get into the blatant sexism therein.
I hope this wasn’t too offensive to anyone. I think it is fine for everyone to hold differing opinions, and these that I have written are some of mine.
Welcome, Spider Woman. We welcome people with diverse opinions. I’ve learned so much from participating here. I pray for you the same good fate.
Thank you for the welcome. I think the SDMB is wonderful.
You are correct. I should have noted that.
Okay I have more time to respond to the recent posts now …
ricksummon: loved your comments and I didn’t take anything as an insult at all. Hope you don’t get in trouble with anyone for agreeing with me on someone ;)!
You said:
Never said it was up to me.
I aree with the first two sentences, but you seem to imply that that means his daughter and I should have said nothing. That would have been cruel! If you see someone about to walk off a cliff and say nothing, how cold is that?
As for the last sentence, I must strongly disagree. You said, to quote again, “If God wants him saved … He will do so”. No. God says He wants ALL people to be saved. Only those who turn to Him WILL be saved. God woos, but each person has to decide.
I never claimed to be 100% certain. But it’s just common sense to say that if someone declares him or herself to not be a Christian all their life and openly rejects the gospel, in all likelihood they will not go to heaven. I mean, sure, I suppose there’s a 0.1% chance they’ve been lying their entire life for some reason. There’s a slightly higher chance that they make some kind of deathbed conversion in their heart that you never know about. I HOPE that’s the case when it comes to this man, believe me.
Finally you said:
Well I’m sorry if I offended you, but truthfully I felt God’s heart for you and I feel like I would have been disobedient to the Lord if I didn’t say what I did. But you don’t have to worry … I never believe in pressing the point with someone who’s made up their mind. All I can do is pray that God will somehow “un-make” your mind up some day.
Now on to Satan. You said:
Later, Guadere responded to this twice. These two lines seem to sum her point:
Amen, preach it sister ;)! This is the post for surprising agreement. First ricksummon agreed with me and now I’m agreeing with Guadere. Wonders never cease!
Honestly, you explained this point better than I probably would have been able to.
Another quote from Satan:
Ah … no. As a born again Christian, I have submitted my life to Christ and submit to God’s definition of right and wrong. Even if I disagree or don’t want to believe something is wrong, if God says it is, it is.
And by the way … I don’t believe it’s wrong “just because God said so” ALONE. I’ll admit to all of you that I used to be this way. I used to see where God set a standard in an area and I just accepted it because God said it. That’s not a bad thing, but there’s a better way …
… and that is understanding God’s HEART behind what He says. God began revealing this to me about 10 years ago, and I’m still learning it. God doesn’t just say, “Hmm I’ll arbitrarily make this rule and that rule …”. No. God restricts us from things that will bring US pain and that will bring HIM pain. Sin ALWAYS damages people, even if it’s not immediately obvious. In fact its usually not obvious at first. Sin is like candy-coated cyanide!
Polycarp: loved your stuff as usual. What’s the deal with Brian and icestorms? I missed something as usual.
Hi Spider Woman thanks for contributing :). And I can say you didn’t offend me personally.
You said
THAT is probably one of the best points about God’s personality that can be made. I’m glad you said it.
I believe that ONE of the many reasons God sent Jesus to earth was for this very reason. He basically lowered himself to become one of us, His own creation!, and expressed God’s personality to us all.
And wow there are a lot of shocking things you don’t expect. The people He rebuked the hardest were church leaders that were legalistic. The people He hung out with the most were those who were the so-called dregs of society – tax collecters, prostitutes, etc.
Jesus had amazing compassion. I truly believe one of the reason He hung out with those He did was because of this: those on this earth who ALREADY KNOW they are sinful are already halfway home to a relationship with God.
The ones that are hardest to reach are those who think they are good people, who think they are already spiritual in some way and don’t really need God. Those on the “lower rung” of society, for the most part, KNOW instinctively that they need God.
So there’s the ultimate answer to my question about God’s personality … look at Jesus’ life and you will see His personality in action.
In my last post, after talking about Rick’s comments, the next few quotes should have been attributed to pldennison. Sorry for the oversight.
Well, I am having trouble resolving this with my internal perception of free will, but perhaps I am being slow. Right now, while I happily exist in this linear-time world, I think I have choices about what I will do tomorrow. I think that when I am given a choice I can choose to do good or to do evil. So let’s say over my lifetime I do some good and some evil things, and “end up” when my atoms degrade into non-biological-life with a finished spiritual state of #27648273. (I am assuming that you think our Spirit is not simply wholly good or wholly evil, but please correct me if I am wrong). This “finished” spiritual state is the sum total of my good and evil actions in this world, and it was set from the very first time the Spirit was separated from God. Is this correct?
So, it’s kind of like there’s this big mass of infinite Spirit, and some of the Spirit is eternally evil (and therefore not a part of God). The cells aren’t exactly “dying”, per se, right? They’re already dead and have always been so. How does the Spirit (not the infinite Good Spirit, but some little parts of it) choose evil if it is/was eternally evil?
Assuming Christianity is correct. So far, the majority of the world’s populations seems to think it is not. Also, a majority of Christians on this very board would never make such a claim, which puts you in a distinct minority. But whatever. It’s a minor quibble, merely you presuming knowledge to which you are not really privy.
Holy
Loving
Forgiving
The Friend that will never leave you
Provider
Understanding
Father
Filling
Considering the state of the world…has a ** Great ** sense of humor
Compassionate
These are all things that I have noticed in the 14 years that I have known him personally. I could go on but words cannot describe him and this was by far ** NOT ** an exhaustive search for words of him.
Thank you CS, that was beautiful.
Pages and pages of words like that wouldn’t do God justice.
He is the total fulfillment of everything we could ever need.
You do not have choices about what you will do tomorrow any more than you have choices about what you did yesterday; you have choices about what you do now.
You cannot do some good and some evil things simply because there are no good or evil things (if by thing, you mean praxis). The exact same act might be good in one context and evil in another.
Neither was there a “time” when you separated from God. You are forever separate from Him (and always have been) in that ablative sense. If you must think of God in temporal terms, then I recommend that you think of His state as an infinite sum of all possible time-space (and other) coordinates in all the infinite universes, and then compact those in your mind into a single “moment”. Now, stretch that moment into an infinitely long one.
Again, the choice is over the whole continuum. Consider the two servants. The one who chose actually to work had that decision in his heart all along. Thus, his heart convinced his brain to go out into the field. Likewise, the servant who refused to go out into the field had already made that decision, even when his mouth announced his willingness to work.
The atoms are your field.