What do you think of the hard core growl/sing?

Cafe Society
21

[QUOTE=Trunk]
Yeah, the posturing is funny. Are there that many guys who are hard ALL THE TIME?

But, as I get older, I really do miss listening to some rocking-ass shit. You can’t put on “Wilco” and “Radiohead” every day without sliding down the adult contemporary path, however good they may be.

And, it seems like if I want to listen to NEW rock that is at least as hard as what I listened to in High School, there’s going to be some growling. Not that I’m looking for anti-growl recs. I’m just trying to understand it a little better.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Muse is another example. Their music ROCKS, but the melodic whiny singing annoys me.

I like the growling rock, especially Rammstein and Godsmack.

22

[QUOTE=Trunk]
So, any deep thoughts on “growl singing”?
[/QUOTE]
It sounds like we are in a similar spot in regards to listening to music, so I’m curious about the responses. For me, some of the more classic metal from back then is still worth listening to, but I like having new stuff to listen to as well. The growling singing really wasn’t working for me at first. The hardcore cookie monster stuff still doesn’t work.

I have to confess that some of it is growing on me if it’s used right. Take The Bleeding by Five Finger Death Punch for example. It’s part power ballad and part growly metal. The thing is, they use the growling singing at the right time. I like how the growling ramps up as the singer gets more angry in the song. Killswitch Engage’s version of Holy Diver is growing on me. It uses growling vocals sparingly.

Avenged Sevenfold was mentioned earlier. From the songs of theirs that I’ve heard on the radio, I like their chaotic, but melodic sound. Korn and Godsmack are bands that are hit or miss for me depending on the song. Disturbed is pretty kick ass all around. YMMV.

23

[QUOTE=control-z]
Agreed. Muse is another example. Their music ROCKS, but the melodic whiny singing annoys me.

I like the growling rock, especially Rammstein and Godsmack.
[/QUOTE]

I dont particularly think rammstein is growl rock, he is singing in bass baritone, but perfectly clearly. At least as clearly as I can understand what he is actually saying with what mediocre german I can speak. Youtube something of theirs like Ich Will or Links 2 3 4, or even Engel.

24

I like them, in the right mood and with the right music. Hate Eternal would just sound goofy with a talented and melodic vocalist, and songs like Praise of the Almighty & etc. would really lose the irony if they sang it instead of growled.

I don’t know about the newer stuff tho. I’m currently a few years behind.

25

I don’t like the growling/Cookie Monster stuff. It pisses me off, though purely for personal reasons. I have a natural bass/baritone voice, and as a teenager in the '80s I was into metal. Specifically, bands like Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, and Manowar. I desperately wanted to be able to sing like Rob Halford or Bruce Dickinson or Eric Adams. But when I started singing, I had a hard time even getting above middle-C.

And so I worked and worked and worked. I practiced singing along with my records day after day. I was encouraged by the fact that most of my favorite metal vocalists who had the highest ranges and the most powerful screams also had naturally deep speaking voices (David Coverdale is a good example of this). I knew it could be done. It took a long time, but I eventually extended my vocal range until I could reliably hit the E a 12th above middle-C (the same note you get playing a guitar’s high E-string at the 12th fret). Then I worked for a few more years to get to the point where, not only could I hit those notes, but I actually sounded good doing it.

I probably would have reached that point much more quickly if I had invested in voice lessons and other proper training, but I did it all by myself.

Then, once I was finally confident enough in my metal vocal skills to do it in public without embarrassing myself, it suddenly became fashionable for metal vocalists to start growling and rasping two octaves lower.

All that work, wasted. Feh.

(And yes, I tried to adapt. I tried to growl. It sent me into massive coughing fits.)

26

[QUOTE=aruvqan]
I dont particularly think rammstein is growl rock, he is singing in bass baritone, but perfectly clearly. At least as clearly as I can understand what he is actually saying with what mediocre german I can speak. Youtube something of theirs like Ich Will or Links 2 3 4, or even Engel.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah you’re right, I guess it’s not. He just sings/speaks the lyrics so menacingly. I guess them being in German helps too.

27

[QUOTE=RogueRacer]
It sounds like we are in a similar spot in regards to listening to music, so I’m curious about the responses. For me, some of the more classic metal from back then is still worth listening to, but I like having new stuff to listen to as well. The growling singing really wasn’t working for me at first. The hardcore cookie monster stuff still doesn’t work.

I have to confess that some of it is growing on me if it’s used right. Take The Bleeding by Five Finger Death Punch for example. It’s part power ballad and part growly metal. The thing is, they use the growling singing at the right time. I like how the growling ramps up as the singer gets more angry in the song. Killswitch Engage’s version of Holy Diver is growing on me. It uses growling vocals sparingly.

[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I heard KSE’s Holy Diver on the radio, and that’s why I got the album, and consequently this thread. (that’s right. . .I call 'em KSE).

I really like the album.

Love the cover of that tune.

Like I said, I was a bit of a Dio fan back in Jr. High. I just wiki’ed it. I’d forgotten the cover art. . .a demon chain-whipping a priest drowning in the ocean. What’s not to like?

Thanks for all the discussion, fellas.

28

There’s a whole lot of metal talk going on in this thread. Screaming vocals are also a major subset of the emo music genre. You see, back in the day emo was all about taking hardcore songs and trying to be more evocative. If you went to an emo show about 20 odd years ago, it was common for the singer to sing and thrash about and yell so much that overtime he’d knock over the mic and never pick it up. Other times the band wouldn’t even face the audience, they’d do their own thing back towards the fans. Emo had a couple of in and out periods, but atleast in the mid-90’s, screaming was a major part of most emo. When emo started to become popular in the 2000’s, people called what was once straight emo “screamo”.

Some amazing screaming acts that may or may not be emo but sort of existed at the same time:

Cap’n Jazz
Orchid (This one also showcases the slowbuild trend emo went through)

Hell, I found a great video on Youtube that can show you the diverse musical world of emo. It has a lot of the greats - pg. 99 and such like - along with a few modern, still recording bands, such as Circle Takes the Square.

29

[QUOTE=ultrafilter]
Ihsahn’s work with Emperor is a good example of someone who doesn’t sing much but clearly has a great voice for it.
[/QUOTE]

Damn shame, too–Ihsahn’s clean voice makes me swoon.

In general: Death/black vox are an acquired taste, and not necessarily one you’ll ever acquire. I can enjoy most and stomach nearly all death vox, but there are a handful of especially shriek-ey black styles that’ll have me flinging the CD at the wall in short order. (I’m thinking especially here of Burzum’s pre-penitentiary work, and probably also Darkthrone, as of Transilvanian Hunger, at least). I acquired the taste back when I was first introduced to to black metal–I was fascinated by the melodies, and could kinda ignore the vocals. Eventually I could enjoy the vox and even understand what they were saying! :wink:

IMO, the best use of deathgrowls is as another instrument–in particular, a rhythm instrument. White Zombie’s first album, and Sepultura’s work around Chaos AD and Roots both exemplify this use…

30

Try Clutch. Blast Tyrant is their best album, IMO.

31

[QUOTE=LawMonkey]
Damn shame, too–Ihsahn’s clean voice makes me swoon.
[/QUOTE]

Have you heard his performance on Arcturus’s “Radical Cut”? He doesn’t do any clean vox there, but it’s one of his finest. That’s off The Sham Mirrors, which is one of my all-time favorite albums.

[QUOTE=Larry Borgia]
Try Clutch. Blast Tyrant is their best album, IMO.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve had at least one person (maybe more, I don’t remember) tell me that they like Clutch’s music but can’t stand the vocals. YMMV. (And I still prefer Pure Rock Fury to their more recent work.)

32

This is all interesting and cool - thanks **Trunk ** for starting it and you metalheads for posting. I also get lost in giggles thinking about Cookie Monster, so can’t get past it - ever hear that cover of AC/DC’s TNT by a Cookie Monster band? Wrong - just wrong; and more than a little silly (as if AC/DC’s original wasn’t silly? Of course it was - the twinkle in Bon Scott’s eye is what made his lyrics so cool…)

What I struggle with when it comes to a lot of current metal and certainly emo, is that it is relentless without being interesting. With music, you must mix it up - either by varying styles, or by sticking with the same style but having such good songs that the listener stays engaged. The constant “I’m so metal” or “I’m so emo - my parents suck” that is not backed up by good songcraft or variations in style leaves me fatigued in 1 - 2 songs…

Sorry for the hijack - and I am sure you more current metal heads can (and have on this thread, thanks) point out songs, albums, etc. that refute my observation, but as someone who loves music, loves metal and stays moderately plugged into new music, the good stuff isn’t as easy to find as I would’ve thought - it seems people value heavyness over the music…

33

Whoever did it originally was making a pretty strong statement about melody and musicality; whoever did it subsequently was just copying them.

34

[QUOTE=lissener]
Whoever did it originally was making a pretty strong statement about melody and musicality; whoever did it subsequently was just copying them.
[/QUOTE]

Its origins are shrouded in mystery.

The wiki page on the death growl are kind of interesting. They cite Screamin Jay Hawkins “I put a Spell on You” as an early example. Metal starting with the band “Death” maybe. Don’t know what kind of statement about melody and muscality they might have been trying to make.

Punk was doing it on some stuff in the 70’s I’m sure, but I’m no student of punk.

35

Clutch is a local band (Well, for **Trunk ** at least…) as they are from the Baltimore area. germantown, MD I believe.

36

Apropos of nothing, as I was browsing AMG to check some of my facts, I ran across their list of the best metal albums of 2007 (part 2). It’s inexcusable that they didn’t mention The Dethalbum, but there’s still some good stuff on there.

[QUOTE=WordMan]
What I struggle with when it comes to a lot of current metal and certainly emo, is that it is relentless without being interesting. With music, you must mix it up - either by varying styles, or by sticking with the same style but having such good songs that the listener stays engaged. The constant “I’m so metal” or “I’m so emo - my parents suck” that is not backed up by good songcraft or variations in style leaves me fatigued in 1 - 2 songs…

Sorry for the hijack - and I am sure you more current metal heads can (and have on this thread, thanks) point out songs, albums, etc. that refute my observation, but as someone who loves music, loves metal and stays moderately plugged into new music, the good stuff isn’t as easy to find as I would’ve thought - it seems people value heavyness over the music…
[/QUOTE]

No one agrees on the exact percentage, but at least 90% of the work in any given genre is crap. What separates the fans of a genre is that they’re willing to slog through that crap to find the good stuff.

For me, there’s no question that the difference between bad and good metal is almost entirely attributable to a band’s songwriting skills. In a lot of cases, the best metal has the right balance between intensity/aggression, technical skills and pop sensibility. I really want to like Dream Theater because their best work absolutely nails that balance, but they tend to wander off into virtuoso wanking too often to be consistently great.

And there’s a time and a place for balls-to-the-wall intensity, or virtuoso playing, or songs that convey a sense of crushing despair. It’s all a question of whether the writers understand the effect they’re going for and whether they can pull it off.

[QUOTE=lissener]
Whoever did it originally was making a pretty strong statement about melody and musicality; whoever did it subsequently was just copying them.
[/QUOTE]

To the best of my knowledge, Bathory was the first band to use any kind of metal vocals, but they were doing a black metal rasp rather than a growl. Whatever happened along the way, the growl showed up no later than 1987 on Napalm Death’s Scum.

37

[QUOTE=WordMan]
This is all interesting and cool - thanks **Trunk ** for starting it and you metalheads for posting. I also get lost in giggles thinking about Cookie Monster, so can’t get past it - ever hear that cover of AC/DC’s TNT by a Cookie Monster band? Wrong - just wrong; and more than a little silly (as if AC/DC’s original wasn’t silly? Of course it was - the twinkle in Bon Scott’s eye is what made his lyrics so cool…)

[/QUOTE]

How about a growl-vocal rendition of Man of Constant Sorrow (the song recorded by the guys in “O Brother Where Art Thou?”)? Uncle Fucker has that on YouTube.

38

[QUOTE=ultrafilter]

No one agrees on the exact percentage, but at least 90% of the work in any given genre is crap. What separates the fans of a genre is that they’re willing to slog through that crap to find the good stuff.

For me, there’s no question that the difference between bad and good metal is almost entirely attributable to a band’s songwriting skills. In a lot of cases, the best metal has the right balance between intensity/aggression, technical skills and pop sensibility. I really want to like Dream Theater because their best work absolutely nails that balance, but they tend to wander off into virtuoso wanking too often to be consistently great.

And there’s a time and a place for balls-to-the-wall intensity, or virtuoso playing, or songs that convey a sense of crushing despair. It’s all a question of whether the writers understand the effect they’re going for and whether they can pull it off.

[/QUOTE]

Your wisdom shows through as always, **UF **- nice post. The last metal album that really captured that for me was **Leviathan by Mastodon **- I haven’t gotten to their follow-up album, but have heard great things. When I listen to Leviathan, I hear great songs and amazing musicians and barely notice the growly vocals because the complete package is so damn good…

39

[QUOTE=ultrafilter]
Have you heard his performance on Arcturus’s “Radical Cut”? He doesn’t do any clean vox there, but it’s one of his finest. That’s off The Sham Mirrors, which is one of my all-time favorite albums.
[/QUOTE]

I have, yes, though I’m not so much of a fan of Arcturus’s post-*Masquerade *work. I had actually meant to mention that I figure Ihsahn’s black vox to also be amongst the best in the biz.

Thanks for that link to the best of 2K7, by the way. I find myself sort of out of touch these days; Satan Stole My Teddybear used to be my go-to for fresh leads, but since Chedsey stopped updating it on a regular basis, I’ve sorta fallen out of touch, and mostly have to find new (metal and non-) stuff through pure serendipity.

40

[QUOTE=ZebraShaSha]
There’s a whole lot of metal talk going on in this thread. Screaming vocals are also a major subset of the emo music genre. You see, back in the day emo was all about taking hardcore songs and trying to be more evocative. If you went to an emo show about 20 odd years ago, it was common for the singer to sing and thrash about and yell so much that overtime he’d knock over the mic and never pick it up. Other times the band wouldn’t even face the audience, they’d do their own thing back towards the fans. Emo had a couple of in and out periods, but atleast in the mid-90’s, screaming was a major part of most emo. When emo started to become popular in the 2000’s, people called what was once straight emo “screamo”.
[/QUOTE]

Screamo is when you take what might be a decent emo song, then scream inarticulately through parts of the song, ruining it. It’s a damn shame because a lot of the songs are pretty good when they’re not screaming but singing. But then, there’s little agreement on the line between emo and screamo - I wouldn’t considered most of the artists listed here (Atreyu aside) as screamo. Story of the Year? Taking Back Sunday? Hawthorne Heights?? seriously? Come on… They may as well put Jimmy Eat World and The Get Up Kids on the list.

Anyway, Metal does the screaming better. At least it’s used more sparingly in most songs, and you can often tell what they’re screaming.