What do you think of the movie "Tombstone" and other newer westerns?

Cafe Society
1

I just got done watching that movie a few minutes ago. I forgot how much I liked it. I have never been into westerns, but I think this one is pretty entertaining. I really like Val Kilmers Doc Holiday. I also like how Wyatt bitch slaps people all the time. Its funny as hell.

I am curious how this movie was recieved when it first came out. Especially by western fanatics.

Also while I have you here, what did you think of Young Guns and That one Sharon Stone one. Quick and the Dead. I like both. I think they are good movies.

Whats the best modern western?

2

I think Tombstone and Unforgiven were the two best westerns of the 90’s (Unforgiven having a higher rating at imdb but Tombstone seems to be much more often discussed and revered.) I haven’t seen many older westerns in their entirety except Shane (which was awesome) but I can’t really see many of them being better than Tombstone. Val Kilmer’s Doc Holiday is just too cool for words.

3

Good topic!

Nowadays, “western” flicks are considered something of a stylized endeavor, sort of the Haiku of the movie world. Not like the “old days” when they were a staple of the industry; now they are sort of a joke or period piece.

I remember “Tombstone” coming out, and loving it. Of course, anything with Kurt Russell will likely win me over, and Val K. was awesome as always. In that same year, Kevin Costner came out with “Wyatt Earp” which, as all KC films do, sucked donkey pud.

Other latter-day western “period pieces” include Clint Eastwood’s “Unforgiven” which must rank in the pantheon of the genre, regardless of the decade in which it was made. Excellent stuff.

“The Quick and the Dead”, while I loved it, must me considered a parody/homage/derivative form of western (sort of John Wayne meets the Three Stooges). That is, it really only works as a reflection of the real westerns of the bygone era.

Personally, I believe (and hope) that Westerns will always be with us, since they reflect the true American essence of self-reliance, honor, and purity. But that’s just me…Timmy

4

What about Wyatt’s bitch slapping tendencies in Tombstone? Come on, that has to be the highlight of the movie. When that one cowboy was talking shit outside the sheriffs office and he flashes his gun. As soon as he sees it, Wyatt grabs it and clubs him in the head with his own gun! YEAH!! That scene rules. It may be because I have drank about 5 J and cokes tonight, but I always take in a war movie when I drink. Tonight I switched it up to a western . Good choice.

And yes, VK Doc was awsome. Best charcter he has played to date I think.

I was never into the old westerns. John Wayne always seemes to fake to me. Didn’t he play an indian on more than one occasion?

5

Not to mention Genghis Kahn .

Young Guns? Bleeh! I did like Silverado though - one of the few movies where Costner looks like he’s actually having fun. Pale Rider was interesting, but Unforgiven was the best.

6

Not all Kevin Costner movies suck. I actually like Bull Durham and Tin Cup. Most others I don’t. And while I didn’t particularly care for him in Wyatt Earp, he wasn’t as annoying there as many. And Dennis Quaid’s Doc Holliday was every bit as awesome as Val Kilmer’s. But neither make my list of great westerns. Unforgiven does, and is also a great movie.

7

You have to remember that they made a lot more westerns in the past then they do now and like many movies made today some weren’t worth remembering. There are actually many good westerns from the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, and some would argue at least a couple from the 80’s. To the best of my knowledge Wayne never played an Indian in any of the movies he starred in. The Duke did make several excellent westerns and you’re doing yourself a disservice if you dismiss him out of hand.

I’m a big western fan and I’ve enjoyed some of the newer westerns that have come out. When I was younger I enjoyed Young Guns but I enjoy it less now that I’m older. I actually went to go see Tomstone with my father on opening day which was either Christmas or Thanksgiving, I can’t remember now. We both loved it. Of course I even liked the Wyatt Earp movie with Kevin Costner.

Here’s a small list of good westerns. Beware, John Wayne stars in some of them.

High Noon
The Searchers
The Shootist (Waynes last movie)
True Grit
Rustler’s Rhapsody
Silverado
Rio Bravo
Shane
Marc (Not a western just my name.)

8

This is a somewhat intersting write up tha tis close to how I feel about John Wayne. I could swear I saw him as an indian chief or something to that effect.

http://www.xeromag.com/v2i2ed.html

Although I do not want this to turn into a “JW suxxors” thread.

Unforgiven. I need to pick that one up.

9

Count me as someone who (1) is a great lover of westerns of the Golden Age, and (2) considers Tombstone a complete mediocrity and, even worse, a bore.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s some good things about it. Kilmer is excellent and the rest of the cast do a good enough job. The O.K. Corrall is well-staged. But ultimately, the movie fails for me because it’s not about anything.

The best westerns always used the western setting as a canvas for larger moral, psychological, or historical discourses. Take the films of the greatest western directors, and you find astute explorations of community (Hawks), mythology (Ford), integrity (Boetticher), violence (Peckinpah), and the dark side of man’s impulses (Mann). These films have familar western conventions, but also offer much richer things–character development, social fabrics, the complexity of landscape (as opposed to just shooting pretty pictures).

Since then, western revisionists find new avenues of re-exploration, subverting or undermining these themes with new sensibilities. Good examples would be *McCabe & Mrs. Miller, The Grey Fox, Unforgiven, * and Dead Man.

Films like Tombstone or, even worse, Silverado seem to think all westerns ever were about were guns and hats and saloons and bad guys and shoot-em-ups. Which is why they’re ultimately so empty to these eyes. Sure, some are fun at times, but because they’re not rooted in anything deeper, they usually go on too long, feel anachronistic, or use violence gratuitously. I find them tiresome.

I miss great westerns. Seeing a man ride off on a horse is as pure and poetic an American image as has ever existed (IMHO)–one replete with hope and shame and a myriad of contradictions. Not all westerns can be great so I appreciate when they make them at all. But there are plenty of westerns I’d watch again and again and again. Tombstone is not one of them.

10

Another vote for The Quick and the Dead. Best Leonardo Di Caprio movie ever. Gene Hackman shoots him.

Unforgiven was great, although the wheels fell off at the end. Clint Eastwood should have died. Tombstone was fun, although messy: half the characters seemed to just disappear. Still, worth watching just for Val Kilmer vs Michael Biehn in the cup-twirling scene.

Go back to the Clint Eastwood westerns: A Fistful Of Dollars, For A Few Dollars More, The Good, The Bad And The Ugly, High Plains Drifter {a very weird movie}, The Outlaw Josey Wales, Two Mules For Sister Sara…Pale Rider is OK, although a little self-referential.

On a slight hijack, has anyone ever counted up the rape scenes in Clint Eastwood movies? I tell you, the man has issues.

11

Just wanted to horn in here to agree with those who liked Val Kilmer’s Doc. A truly inspired performance. “Ahm yahr huckleberry” :cool:

12

As I have mentioned in a couple of other threads, since I could sit a horse relatively convincingly when I was young and was around where they were filming a number of westerns, I was asked to wander through a number of them. So being so close to the product I definitely have an opinion on them.

I love the old westerns and I don’t feel it is necessary for them to be in color to be great which many fans these days don’t understand.

I still contend the best western ever was My Darling Clementine. It was everything a film should be, not just what a western should be.

If you want to see what made John Wayne an icon don’t watch True Grit, or Rooster Cogburn, you need to watch Red River (my personal favorite of his) or The Searchers or She Wore a Yellow Ribbon. In his later stuff he was “doing” himself, not being the character as he was in the earlier ones.

Others of the old school, include Destry Rides Again with James Stewart or Ride the High Country with Randolph Scott and Joel McRea.

As was mentioned before, the westerns were more then just about guns, guts and glory. There was something deeper there, they were morality plays that were just a generation or so removed from the young people gathered in the theaters to watch. It was not myth to the people who gathered to watch the “golden age” of westerns. They knew people who knew the people being portrayed on screen. It should be remembered that Wyatt Earp lived into the late 30s as did many of his contemporaries so this was real stuff to the youth of that generation.

In regard to the more modern westerns, I hated Quick and the Dead and Young Guns. Personally I felt they were little more than cartoons - There was no substance, no point. I did feel that the Unforgiven was good as was Silverado, but I’m prejudiced on that last one.

As for Tombstone…not bad, especially Val Kilmer although Kirk Douglas, Jason Robards and Victor Mature all have done a good job with the Doc Holiday role. However, if you want good stories of Wyatt Earp, see My Darling Clementine or Sunset or Gunfight at the OK Corral, or…but you get the idea.

I sometimes wonder why Tombstone, Arizona doesn’t do a Wyatt Earp film festivial ever two or three years.

13

Was Wyatt Earp as much of a badass in RL as he was portrayed to be in Tombstone? That dude bitchslapped everyone. I can’t get over it.

"You better skin that piece boy"SLAP!"You gonna throw down or just stand there looking?"SLAP!

14

The one with Tom Berringer? I think that movies a western in the same way that Blazing Saddles is a western.

I liked Young Guns and The Quick and the Dead. I was even pleasently surprised by American Outlaws. I think all of these “new” westerns lack the gritty, authentic feel of the old Clint Eastwood movies.

Dude, it’s Clint Eastwood.

15

stinkpalm, yes, Wyatt Earp was known to bitchslap people. He wasn’t big on shooting them.

16

No, it was necessary for at least one of the bad guys in Unforgiven to live and be unrepentent. It was called Unforgiven. Deserve’s got nothing to do with it. It would have been a ridiculous glorification of violence if everything wasn’t left with an empty feeling at the end. One of the best westerns ever done. I will second My Darling Clementine, although it isn’t a new western. The Ox Bow Incident is a goodie too.

17

Actually, everything I have read suggests that he was more fond of coldcocking them with his revolver barrel. One thing I read suggested that he liked his “Buntline Special” (the special revolver that writer Ned Buntline had designed) because it had a longer barrel for just such an activity.

18

Tombstone fan here, the character development and fast pacing of the story (e.g. The Cowboy war after the OK Corral kind of took me by surprise) are reasons not mentioned yet besides all the other stuff which I agree with.

Wyatt Earp indeed disappointed, but I would add Dances with Wolves as the 3rd best Western since, say 1985 (Tombstone, Unforgiven) I don’t think its KC so much as him not having to listen to anyone.

Our descendants will be watching ** High Noon** in the comfort of their condos on the moon in 100 years.

How about 70’s Clint? (Spaghetti anyone?) The Good The Bad and The Ugly, High Plains Drifter, For A few Dollars More , and in the U.S. :The Outlaw Josey Wales

Jeremiah Johnson & Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid were good uns too.

19

My only complaints against “Tombstone” is the artistic licenses taken with Josie Earp (iirc Costner’s film portayed this, uh, rather earthy woman closer to her true self) and Johnny Ringo. Especilly Ringo’s death. If memory serves, no one knows exactly how he was shot and killed, hell, there’s even a suicide theory, but it certainly wasn’t as portrayed in the film. But it s a small quibble. And as always, Wyatt takes more of a centerstage. Vrgil Earp is considered by most historians to be the central figure amongst the brothers, at least until he leaves Tombstone. But Wyatt, of all the Earp brothers, survived into very old age and was the one to tell the stories to Lake, so I understand how the legends came to be.

And at least they had them fairly close to Fly’s Photographic Studio, but the OK Corral was still in the background, whereas IRL it was down an alley about a block away from where the gunfight occurred, iirc.

Sir Rhosis

20

I love Unforgiven but I have to say that Young Guns 2 is my favorite western ever.

Emilio rocks as Billy the Kid (I’ll make ya famous!) and the story has a nice arc. The fact that it is loosely based on a true story is an added bonus. (Some guy actually did show up in New Mexico claiming to be Billy the Kid and wanted a pardon) The movie has beatuiful scenes and the other actors did a good job.

Damned, I wish my copy of Young Guns 2 didn’t melt in my apartment fire or I’d go watch it right now.

Slee