Thanks, Peter, for that cogent explanation of what you were curious about. I agree with your initial thought, and how this little survey seems to have confirmed it.
Take me, for example – I consider myself relatively well-read, I’m interested in both language and history, and my grandfather was born in China, in 1912 (his father was an American missionary doctor living there).
Yet, I cannot recall ever having heard the word “celestial”, as an adjective or a noun, being attached specifically to China. I had some dim notion that it once called itself the “Celestial Empire”, but that’s not a big deal – lots of places call themselves lots of things over the centuries, and so I didn’t mention this is my “definition/synonyms”, just like I didn’t mention Celsetial Seasonings tea products, or a dozen other similar things.
Indeed, China’s calling itself the “Middle Kingdom” – still to this day – is overwhelmingly more prominent and well known than the obscure “celestial” thing.
So, I agree that the Doctor Who character was almost certainly conceived without China in mind – and even if it were, it would have been likely meant as a sly, subtle, inoffesnive reference by some writer on the show, something he/she expected very few people to “get”.
I would never have thought of that, and IMO in context the word “celestial” is clearly referring to his god-like powers.
On the other hand, the fact that he’s played by an Englishman doesn’t necessarily mean much. Even ten years later, in “The Talons of Weng Chiang” they had the main Chinese dude being played by an Englishman named John Bennett :smack:
I’m thinking that the Chinese robe on the “Celestial” alien would have been one of the early instances of TV (and other media) writers “slipping” an innocuous “in-joke” into the screenplay… IOW, I find it hard to believe that this was coincidental, and I find it equally hard to believe that it was malicious. I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if it turned out to be someone of Chinese heritage who planted this little Easter Egg…
The first Google hit was the FreeDictionary, which includes the definition at issue. That is a good citation.
The FreeDictionary provides a total of four definitions, one of which I do not think anyone here has yet identified.
I have known that phrase since college at the latest (1967-71).
This is a question of usage, not provenance.
I could easily see the word in question applied to royalty. I had never heard it applied to all citizens,
and I am suprised that the royalty would agree to share such a distinguished title with everyone else.
I have heard of that meaning before. I’ve visited the Forbidden City in Beijing multiple times, and ther various tourist info goes into that. But it still didn’t make me automatically connect “celestioal” with “Chinese.”
Well, if Siam Sam didn’t make the connection automatically, then I feel somewhat less foolish admitting that I did not either. Once Peter Morris clued us in, I immediately remembered Mandate of Heaven. Then I read up on it and was entertainingly informed.
Characters in HBO’s Deadwood referred to Chinese as “celestials”. I’m not sure if it’s historically accurate, but David Milch must have thought it was.
Not in the slightest, no. While I feel as though I may have heard or read a reference to China as “the Celestial Empire” at some point, it’s hardly common usage.
Using “Celestial” as a synonym for “Chinese” is something I can’t recall having come across in 50 years of being British (and a Doctor Who fan).
I think I might have heard of China being called the “celestial empire”, but it never would have occurred to me to use “Celestial” to mean “Chinese”. To me, that sounds roughly analogous to referring to a German at the time of Charlemagne as a “Holy”.
Oh, and as for the Dr. Who character wearing a Chinese-style robe, that’s probably just from the wardrobe department wanting to dress him in something exotic and unfamiliar to British audiences. Making up a completely new style would be a lot of work, so they just used an existing style from far around the globe.
Oh, that doesn’t sound right. 60s Doctor Who would do a whole new alien/future/period style every other week – costumes, makeup, architecture, the works. They did their best, bless 'em, but it didn’t often look like it had been a lot of work.
I don’t know why they had him in a chinese costume (I haven’t seen the story since it was broadcast), but I can’t imagine anyone thought it wouldn’t be immediately obvious that that’s what it was. He’s dressed like Fu Manchu!
