Do about it?
This is about establishing blame, and bitching about how the word usage hurts feelings. There is no intention whatsoever to DO anything.
After all, the horrendous conditions are there for a purpose. We’ve been told that by this administration explicitly. They’re not hiding it.
The not-popular (how’s that for toning it down?) part is what matters in the Elections forum. The amazing thing is not only that Trump thinks it will help him, and the party, in the next election, but that he actually has followers who do think it’s good policy.
So Republicans have found something that they claim Obama did, and they don’t want to undo it. Crazy town, crazy I tell ya.
So what’s gonna happen to Trump after this?
“Turn him loose. Turn them all loose.”
<whisper> “As little as possible.”
“Forget it bobot. It’s TrumpTown.”
I “conceded” that conditions are not always ideal several pages ago. Do you remember this post?
…there has been tireless reporting from reporters likeAura Bogado that objectively show that under the Obama administration in detention children were sometimes denied soap, toothbrushes, or beds. This shouldn’t be forgotten, minimized, or denied.
But there is a qualititative difference, and HurricaneDitka cite demonstrates what that difference is. The filing argued that "Class members in CBP facilities for 12-72 hours are not provided showers, soap, toothbrushes or towels. This, by any measure, is heinous, and a stain on Obama’s legacy.
But the reporting from the camps is telling a very different story. The length of time is not measured in days. It is measured by weeks. This isn’t a stain on Trump’s legacy. Its a criminal indictment.
This ultimately isn’t an argument about soap. This isn’t just about the lack of toothbrushes, or towels, or even the child seperation policy.
This is about taking a process that was already fundumentally inhuman and intentionally making it significantly fucking worse. The cruelity is the point. We know that white supremacist Stephen Miller is calling the shots. We know that the Border Patrol has been a cruel organization since its inception. Don’t belive me? Here is video from last year of a Border Patrol car running over a man, driving off, and nobody was held to account.
This isn’t a problem that started with Obama. It is entirely fair to bring up the problems with his administration but it is categorically not fair to claim that “this started” under his administration. This “started” when America was founded. The legacy of white supremacy has never gone away and it is stronger now under the Trump administration than it has been for a very long time. Its important for everyone to understand exactly what is happening here. This isn’t just neglect. When the executive orders were given in 2017 “the river” of people flooding into-then-out-of the system suddenly encountered “a dam.” And the decision to dam the river is what has turned the (at times) cruel detention camps into something else. These are, by any reasonable definition, concentration camps. That is not inflammatory rhetoric.
It’s rather depressing to see how some of my fellow citizens are reacting to the abuse of these children. Number one on everyone’s minds should be how do we stop it. Instead, we see people blaming the victims for trying to enter the US and escape the horrors of their native lands. Or they’re fine with the suffering of children because they think it will deter others. Or they’re fine with it because they think of them as less human than themselves because they’re a little more pigmented or speak a different language. Or they see it as a chance to score gotcha points against the Democrats for not voting for a bill that gave big bucks to DHS for other things. Or they want to point to children not having soap for what, 3 days, when Obama was president so they can say “See! Obama did it TOOOOOOOOO!” All of this makes me sick. Children being used as pawns to deter immigration or to somehow make ignorant white voters be more afraid of the great brown menace to the south. So now the House passes this bill to provide relief and it either die in the Senate at the hands of the Great Reaper Tortoise or be vetoed because those who benefit will be non-Americans. If this child abuse at the hands of the government doesn’t offend and sicken you, then you offend and sicken me.
And I feel much the same about people who are trying to use this for political gain or to score points. Basically, to me the primary thing isn’t to stop it…that’s impossible, at least in the short term. People are and will be trying to enter the US illegally, and they are and will be bringing their kids. In fact, we know of instances where people have kidnapped or stolen other people’s kids because of the supposed better treatment they will get if they are trying to illegally enter as a ‘family’. So, there isn’t any sort of easy answer to this. We can’t just empty the facilities and turn everyone loose and think, yeah, that solves everything.
Instead of the impossible, I think the first thing we should do, the primary thing we should be doing is to mitigate the issue to the greatest extent possible. It’s a crisis already. What the Dems are trying to do is EXACTLY the right thing. This is going to take resources and it’s going to take effort to mitigate. This isn’t really a fix, but it’s what we have to start with. Then we need to, as a nation, take a hard look at this issue and figure out what we, as a people, want to do. If we actually are the country of immigrants wanting the tired, poor and wretched refuse yearning to breath free, then we need to step up, put our prejudices behind us and figure out how to do that. As we have in the past. It’s not like this is the only time we’ve had home grown and irrational fears of immigrants and wanted to close the borders. It’s a recurring theme and one we’ve gotten past before…and can again. Then we need to look at why this is happening and what we can do to rectify the situation in Central America. Basically, if people are secure at home, if they have jobs and stability then they won’t need to be refugees fleeing in panic and we can basically do what we normally do…taking just the people who want to be Americans, instead of folks who are fleeing for their lives and scared to stay in their home countries.
The Dems who are with Pelosi have this right. They are actually DOING something concrete instead of trying to play word games and score points without any plan for alleviating the issue. The first thing is to do the practical, to solve the first problem…then the next, and the next, to paraphrase The Martian. If we solve enough, then folks don’t have to die trying to illegally cross a river with their tiny daughter strapped to their back. 
The “Great Reaper Tortoise” and his fellow Senators passed their own bill (84-8):
Politico - Senate passes border spending package, setting up fight with House
It looks like Senate Majority Leader McConnell even gave Nancy’s bill a vote:
…says the person who happily linked to and endorsed a link to Trumpian Propaganda and declared “I have no idea of the politics of the people who wrote it. Probably neo-Nazi or conservatives or something like that. I didn’t bother checking and, frankly, don’t give a fuck.”
If you aren’t interested in fact-checking or investigating the source of someone who co-incidentally happens to share your opinion then it seems crystal clear that the only reason you linked to that article was to use it for “political gain” and to “score points.” So I hope you “feel the same” about yourself.
Can you quantify this?
This is yet another Trump talking point. It was a talking point used to justify the child seperation policy. Did you raise this tidbit in support of that policy?
More than once a day.
…I’ll repeat the question. Can you quantify this? An assertion of numbers published by the Moonie Times doesn’t really count. What metrics did Katie Waldman use, and can you link to those figures please? Was the determination that “children are indeed being kidnapped or borrowed by illegal immigrants trying to pose as families” used as part of the justification for the family seperation policy? Zero tolerance was introduced in April 2018. The article was dated May 2018. Details of the family seperation policy started to filter out in June 2018, when the policy got reversed. You aren’t a tad-bit skeptical about the veracity of the numbers you’ve cited?
I’m a tad-bit skeptical about the veracity of most numbers, but I’m unaware of a better source on this one, and I think I’ve reached the limits of the amount of research I’m interested in doing for you. If you want to try to provide your own quantification, go for it. If you want to remain dubious of the one provided for you, go for it. I don’t care.
I spent way too much time digging up multiple sources for iiandyiiii earlier to convince him of some basic facts, and I’m not interested in going through something similar with you today.
…you weren’t doing research for me, you were doing research for XT, who made the assertion I asked if he could back up.
I don’t need to quantify the numbers. I’m not the one who is arguing that “kidnapped or borrowed by illegal immigrants trying to pose as families” is a problem that is objectively large enough that it justifies Trumps border policies. The claim that in a single calendar year there has been a 900 percent increase in attempts is an extraordinary claim. Especially in regards to the timing of the release of the claim, and the outlet that uncritcally published that claim.
Is your prediction that there will be no more mistreatment of children once this bill passes? After all, you’ve blamed the situation on Obama, who is gone; you’ve blamed it on money, which will soon arrive; so surely it will all be fixed shortly under the stalwart leadership of Dear Leader Trump, who loves all children as his own.
Not at all, as I’ve already noted in this thread:
I suppose I could have added that I suspect it will continue long after the administration of President Trump. And this is true of all sorts of detainees, not just children and not just illegal immigrants. For example, our prisons aren’t exactly famous for their consistent 5-star ratings by inmates. Government bureaucrats make a hash of things, that’s pretty much a constant. They’ll continue to make a hash of things, at least some of the time, even after we give them more money.
Wait, I thought right-wingers complained that prisons were too cushy! Well, whatever is convenient for the argument of the moment.
Unless you’ve got an example where I complained that prisons were too cushy, I don’t see how this is relevant to … well … anything.
I’m saying that you will change your argument as needed to not admit that Trump is intentionally inflicting misery on defenseless children.
I’ve specifically argued against calling them “concentration camps”
So what? We are talking about now. Do you agree with the Administration that soap and toothpaste are not required?
I’ve not called anyone evil for anything.