What fuels the hatred?-terrorists

Great Debates
61

Sounds like he was seeing riyal signs in his eyes, thinking of the profit they would bring on the black market.

Seems like these explanations keep coming down to the status of women? If yall are so fascinated with Middle Eastern women, then listen to what women themselves there are really saying. It’s been in the news lately, a lot of Arab women are blogging now. In fact, most Arab bloggers are women. This means women who’d been denied a public voice for centuries are now finding their voices. I find this highly significant for the Middle East.

62

Thats right. The reason terrorists yesterday bombed Mumbais rail network is that they are fundamentally opposed to Indias excessive, ‘successful’ and debaucherous lifestyle.

It probably has nothing to do with protesting against Indias occupation of Kashmir.

63

Yes but the debate is about terrorists not violence. You’ve altered an argument to something that you can dismiss as overly simplistic.

There is a definable demographic group that uses terrorism around the world as a political tool. That group has a common denominator and it is the religion of peace.

64

No, the reason Indian railways were bombed is because terrorism is a mechanism used by Muslims for political gain. It wasn’t directed at a government, it was directed at civilians for the express purpose of terrorism. What fuels this is the religion and culture of Islam.

-Don’t agree with political boundaries - terrorism
-Don’t like beauty pageants - terrorism
-Cartoons got you in a rut - terrorism
-Author writes a book about Mohammed - terrorism
-Disagree with Government’s policy - terrorism

This is what the debate is about.

65

That is not the sole common denominator. (And it ignores the terrorism that has been carried out by non-Muslim groups*). Other common denominators are a lack of armed political might and oppressed minority cultures.
Conversely, those governments that have engaged in authoritarian rule, inspiring populist revolutions, have, typically, been organized along Western lines. If we say that Islam is the source of world terrorism, it is quite reasonable to respond that Western ideology is the source of authoritarian oppression. (Even the current North Korean and Chinese regimes got their original organizational impetus from Western Marxism.)

And, as I have already noted, a number of people are quite willing to lump the rioters in France in with “Muslim” terrorists, even though the participants have very little association with the religion.

  • Hindu Tamils, Hindu Bajrangis, Christian Ugandans, Christian Burmese, etc.
66

My post #65 was in response to

67

Pakistan is fully capable of fighting for Kashmir and conversly, India is capable of using terrorist tactics against Pakistan (which it isn’t).

And while the riots in French were nither terrorism in nature or religiously directed the culture and mindset of Muslims can’t be ruled out. You could also say it was an unattended fire due to the French response (or lack therof).

You can start a thread on Western authoritarian oppression as a separate issue but you can’t make the direct comparison to acts of terrorism. They are not the reverse sides of the same coin.

68

They are, however, examples of complementary oversimplifications of issues.

69

There may be a degree of truth in there, but consider this:

  1. Has binLaden ever mentioned social issues as the reason for his attacks? As far as I know, his primary issue with the US has been its military presence in the region. Has any terrorist group declared that they’re attacking westerners because of homosexual marriage?

  2. If terrorists were so concerned about what they see as decadent western values, then why on earth attack the US? The US may well be the most prudish western power, just look at the fuss that Janet Jackson’s flabby mammary caused. Compared to say Netherlands or Sweden, the US is downright frumpy. If they want to go after decadence, surely there are a host of countries that they would consider far more offensive.

70

I just quoted from Bin Laden’s demands. That list of stuff came directly from them. Getting troops out of the middle east was way down the list. The social issues were higher.

They go after the U.S. because the U.S. has influence due to its size and economic power. But speaking of the Netherlands… You may have noticed that they’ve got their own problems with radical Islam, and social issues are almost entirely the source of the problem. Theo Van Gogh was killed because he ‘insulted’ Islam.

To quote again, here is Bin Laden’s first and second demands :

71

It should be noted, of course, that the list is subsequent to the WTC/Pentagon attacks. While bin Laden had made periodic rumblings against Western culture in the 1990s, his most significant calls in the Arab world were the denunciation of U.S. troops in the land of Mecca and Medina following the first Gulf War. He never even bothered to include concern for the Palestinians until he had grabbed world attention with the WTC/Pentagon attacks.

I am sure that he does tend to believe the stuff that he published, but he also tailors his rhetoric to his audience.

72

Nope, but the Badr Brigades (who execute Homosexuals) and plenty of Muslim groups affiliated with Islamist causes routintely whine on about how Gays are the devil and must be eliminated since it’s ‘unnatural’

Because the US is pretty much where all ‘decadent trends’ come from, Hollywood anyone? And even if the US is frumpy by European standards, do you think that translates to a radical Islamist group? No I thought not.

73

Excuse me, I keep seeing the status of women cited as a reason that is supposed to be driving the Islamists violently berserk, for example, the above “women shaking off the burkas” theory for terrorism.

And then to prove that theory you quoted bin Ladin’s lengthy list of grievances and demands, in which the issues of women’s status… appears nowhere at all. Bin Ladin for some mysterious reason is all het up about geopolitical issues, military power, finance, and imperialism. Not one word about women, not even a hint! Hmph, I feel slighted. If the arguments in this thread are any indication, Western Dopers are far more obsessed with Middle Eastern women than the terrorists who are reputed to be so almighty obsessed about the subject that they’ve gone on the rampage to put women back in burqa‘s. The real terrorists, not the fantasy ones, are a letdown, they only talk about boring stuff like politics instead of women’s fashions like we think they should.

74

Sam, I assume you presented the document that was the strongest evidence in support of your position. But even in that document, only two of the seven items listed were about “freedom”. The majority of the grievances listed were about the issues I had mentioned.

75

Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding you. But I think it’s somewhat simplistic to dismiss the notion that the status of women has no link to Islamic terrorism, as you seem to be doing here.

Just my opinion, but the Wahhabi-inspired sexual repressiveness of Saudi Arabia, for example, does stunt a large number of Saudi Arabian male’s view of women. The barriers to what I would consider normal male-female interaction - the veil, the outfits women are required to wear, the inability to freely socialize, the largely second-class status of women, among other things - do produce a lot of pissed off, sexually frustrated young men.

You combine that with a sclerotic economy that can’t produce jobs necessary to thrive in the global economy and that funnels its unearned wealth to a feckless elite, mix in a little religion to lend purpose and clarity to your outrage, and add a dash of indoctrination through Wahhabi-inspired “education” :rolleyes: and a media that refocuses all your problems on (pick your boogeyman here - the U.S., Jews, Israel, etc.), bake for about 18-20 years, and wa-la!! You got a good shot of having quite the troublemaker on your hands.

I found it interesting that a sizable number of the supposedly pious Islamic 9/11 hijackers were getting lap dances at the titty bar on what they may have known was their last night on earth.

If the status of women has nothing to do with terrorism, after all, why the use of 72 beautiful virgins in heaven as a reward for martyrdom is used as a recruiting tool? Maybe, as you say Johanna, the terror masterminds are thinking about geopolitics and economics and globalization in their plotting. But they sure as hell are using sex (admittedly, among a host of other reasons) - as a siren call to the foot soldiers.

76

Can you provide a reference to a Muslim statement that the “martyrs” will get 72 virgins in Paradise–as opposed to one of the dozens of web pages created by ignorant non-Muslims making that assertion?
I have read a lot of the Muslim comments on the web in the last ten years and I find it striking that the only time I hear about the “72 virgins” is when I am reading outraged non-Muslims (who often display a lot of ignorance regarding Islam).

77

I’ve been active in feminism for years, I’ve been to the Middle East, I know lots of Muslim women—I stay informed about feminist issues there. And honey, clothing just ain’t on the top of anyone’s agenda except maybe the Beirut couturiers.

Middle Eastern feminists (like Shirin Ebadi, to name a good example) are concerned with things like equal voting rights, economic rights, legal rights for women. They just got done You can find Muslim feminists either wearing hijab or not, it really isn’t a big deal to them one way or another. Hijabed women work side by side with non-hijabed women in most countries in the Middle East.

Meanwhile, the men with their beards and guns and bombs would probably think it demeaning and sissy to make women the focus of their jihads when they would rather fight for manly stuff like power and territory. The militant Wahhabis could care less whether women or men got the vote, because they don’t want anyone to vote, they want a dictatorship.

Both the feminists and the fundies over there probably wonder how can Westerners be so frivolous they think clothing is a major issue of the region, when there are much more important issues being fought over.

78

winning women’s suffrage in Kuwait and held the first election in which Kuwaiti women voted. I consider that a significant advance for Arab women. I doubt anyone paid much attention to how much hijab they were wearing as they cast their ballots.

79

How do you know this - were you in on it?

Why do you always equate Islam with terrorism?

80

Well, I definitely qualify as someone who’s ignorant about Islam. I’ve got to go to work so I don’t have time to do the research you’re looking for, but according toCecil, the “…provision of virgins in indeterminate quantities is alluded to (in the Koran) at numerous points, and you know they’re not just there to fluff the pillows…”

According to this 2002 article in The Guardian, a Hamas recruiter admitted he was not above using the promise of 70 (not 72) virgins as a reward for martyrdom.

I will try to do better later, but now I’m late.